SaturnFans.com
saturnfans.com - classifieds - forums - webmail


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-26-2011, 08:45 PM   #1
ehunter
Senior Member
ehunter has a spectacular aura aboutehunter has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pacifica by San Francisco – 5sp – Original engine rebuild as documented by this site @ 177K due to high oil consumption. Mpgs back to 40+. Car runs smooth, like a top. Now at 220k. Successful rebuild !
Posts: 1,468

1996 SL2
Default Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

I have zero leakage at the valve and timing covers. I just replaced the cylinder head 750 miles ago to force new valve seals onto the engine. I am using the fixed orifice PCV and the car runs great but I am still burning 1 qt/300mi .

Question Ė If I am burning so much oil via normal spark plug ignition/ring leakage, you would think there would be a way to detect the burn somehow. It seems somebody would have created some kind of oil burn sensor in this day of age to be used at the smog stations.

I got to tell you though, I donít think I have the wherewithal after my recent cylinder head job to re-dig into the motor and replace the pistons/rings. I only assume that would be the next step.

To replace pistons/rings the whole motor gets yanked, correct? This is a much more intensive job than replacing the cylinder head, correct?
ehunter is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 07-26-2011, 09:15 PM   #2
off-track
Master Member
off-track has a spectacular aura aboutoff-track has a spectacular aura aboutoff-track has a spectacular aura about
 
off-track's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Madison, Wi
Posts: 3,093
 

1997 SL2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

Not untried but also not a lot of fun (from what I've read). Search "in car re-ring" IIRC. Since you've already done the head I'd give it a shot.

It would be easier to pull the engine IMHO. Unfortunately you will have to re-do most everything you did for the head... and throw another ~$400-600 at it depending on how thorough you want to be.
...
1997 - SL2, barebones, 161k, Auto - Rebuild complete and.. burnt a valve 20k later Arrgh!
Purchased 114k 10/07
Added OEM CC
off-track is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 09:24 PM   #3
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,693
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

Pulling the engine/transmission is easier than removing and replacing the timing cover in the car. You have no visual cylinder wear so you could probably get away with out boring the engine and if that was the case then you would need head bolts, head gasket, rear seal, and rings. You could replace the rod and main bearings at the same time.

I was wondering how it was going with all leaks stopped.

You need an engine hoist, load leveler, and engine stand.
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 09:26 PM   #4
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,693
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

This is also a good time to replace the clutch.
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 09:28 PM   #5
fetchitfido
Super Member
fetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant future
 
fetchitfido's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 14,856
 

2001 SC2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

Have to take the head off to get the pistons out. Much easier to do that with the engine out but can be done without doing so. Just, pretty much, take the IM off, the timing chain, the trans-engine brace, flywheel dust cover, oil pan, then the head. Then you can unbolt the piston rods & pull 'em out the top.
...
The proper way to fix a S-Series automatic is to replace it with a 5spd O:)
fetchitfido is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 10:44 PM   #6
ehunter
Senior Member
ehunter has a spectacular aura aboutehunter has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pacifica by San Francisco – 5sp – Original engine rebuild as documented by this site @ 177K due to high oil consumption. Mpgs back to 40+. Car runs smooth, like a top. Now at 220k. Successful rebuild !
Posts: 1,468

1996 SL2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

Can you guys help with this list of needs and where to gets?

RA=Rock Auto

Costs:
Load leveler ?-$50
Engine stand ?-$100
Engine hoist ?-$150
Pistons with drain holes: ???
Head bolts RA-$23
Head gasket RA-$28
Rear seal (=crank shaft seal???) RA-$15
Rings ???
Rod ???
Main bearings (=connecting rod bearings???) RA-4x$5
Clutch ???
ehunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 11:12 PM   #7
madpogue
Super Member
madpogue has much to be proud ofmadpogue has much to be proud ofmadpogue has much to be proud ofmadpogue has much to be proud ofmadpogue has much to be proud ofmadpogue has much to be proud ofmadpogue has much to be proud ofmadpogue has much to be proud of
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 25,715
 

1996 SW2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

How many MMO soaks did you try?
madpogue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 11:13 PM   #8
ehunter
Senior Member
ehunter has a spectacular aura aboutehunter has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pacifica by San Francisco – 5sp – Original engine rebuild as documented by this site @ 177K due to high oil consumption. Mpgs back to 40+. Car runs smooth, like a top. Now at 220k. Successful rebuild !
Posts: 1,468

1996 SL2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

One soak lasting 24 hours and after a 5min Macs engine flush
ehunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 11:23 PM   #9
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,693
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehunter View Post
Can you guys help with this list of needs and where to gets?

RA=Rock Auto

Costs:
Load leveler ?-$50
Engine stand ?-$100
Engine hoist ?-$150

Harbor freight is the lowest cost.

Pistons with drain holes: ???
If bore is good and pistons are good you drill your own.

Head bolts RA-$23
Head gasket RA-$28

Rear seal (=crank shaft seal???) RA-$15
Yes.

Rings ???
Hastings from local parts store or Sealed Power or Perfect Circle from RA. Depends on how the cylinders measure out. Perfect Circle rings are easy seating rings.

Rod ???
Main bearings (=connecting rod bearings???) RA-4x$5

Connecting rod bearings.
Main bearings.
Both sets RA. Brand is again a choice.

Clutch ???
LUK from gripforce-clutches (eBay) $159.00
Much of the decision on bearings is based on how the crank plastigauges and then measures. In most cases if it looks good it is and a polish is all that may be required. The majority of the wear should be on the bearings. Piston and rings again is determined by how the bore measures.

The first thing to look for is the local engine rebulder with a good reputation. The block and crank are measured to the 1/10,000" which is past the home micrometer class tool. Ring seating is dependent on cylinder finish before installation. A good rebuilder will give you ring/piston recommendations and this is a big help to getting it right. The big unknown is what the cylinder wear actually measures out to as much past 0.004 on the diameter and a rebore is the recommended approach.

Local parts store sells plastigauge so you can check the present clearances. Knowing the clearance and then the wear on the crank you can calculate the bearing wear. Plastigauge is cheap and it works. http://www.plastigaugeusa.com/ NAPA usually has it you will only use a single sleeve of 2 different ranges. Each sleeve is about $2.00 at NAPA IRC. Look at the max-min rod and main bearing clearances and that is the range you have to cover.
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 02:23 AM   #10
MacG
Member
MacG is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 312

1992 SL2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

This is what I did for my engine hoist this time. Bought a chain pulley like those at the JY for $50. Built a trolley out of two wheels from Harbor Freight and some steel from Orchard Hardware and a load leveler (not pictured) from HF a must. Worked great see pic.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg hoist.jpg (143.7 KB, 300 views)
MacG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 12:22 PM   #11
Highmile
Senior Member
Highmile will become famous soon enoughHighmile will become famous soon enough
 
Highmile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: St. Louis, Mo.
Posts: 1,315

1995 SL1
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

Sorry to hear.... I was afraid this was going to be the result.
Highmile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 04:36 PM   #12
ehunter
Senior Member
ehunter has a spectacular aura aboutehunter has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pacifica by San Francisco – 5sp – Original engine rebuild as documented by this site @ 177K due to high oil consumption. Mpgs back to 40+. Car runs smooth, like a top. Now at 220k. Successful rebuild !
Posts: 1,468

1996 SL2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

RA=Rock Auto
HF=Harbor Freight

Here is where I am with this:

Load leveler HF-$40 (sku 67441) http://www.harborfreight.com/2-ton-c...eler-5402.html
Engine stand HF-$50 (sku 32915) http://www.harborfreight.com/750-lb-...and-32915.html
Engine hoist HF-$170 (sku 93840) http://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-c...ane-93840.html

Pistons with drain holes: I donít have a drill press to drill my own holes. How professionally does this need to be done? Does it warrant buying a small cheap drill press?

Head bolts RA-$23
Head gasket RA-$28

Crank shaft seal RA-$15 I noticed RA has different brands of seals ranging from 9-$18. Is the brand important?

Rings - Hastings from local parts store or Sealed Power or Perfect Circle from RA. Depends on how the cylinders measure out. Perfect Circle rings are easy seating rings.
Does this mean I can not pre-purchase the rings until after everything is taken apart and measurements taken? At the same time what do I use to obtain the said measurements?

Connecting rod bearings
Main bearings

Both sets RA. Brand is again a choice.
Am feeling insecure about what I am choosing on RA. Can I be baby-ed and ask for some RA part numbers?

Clutch -LUK from gripforce-clutches (eBay) $159.00
ehunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 06:42 PM   #13
ehunter
Senior Member
ehunter has a spectacular aura aboutehunter has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pacifica by San Francisco – 5sp – Original engine rebuild as documented by this site @ 177K due to high oil consumption. Mpgs back to 40+. Car runs smooth, like a top. Now at 220k. Successful rebuild !
Posts: 1,468

1996 SL2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacG View Post
This is what I did for my engine hoist this time. Bought a chain pulley like those at the JY for $50. Built a trolley out of two wheels from Harbor Freight and some steel from Orchard Hardware and a load leveler (not pictured) from HF a must. Worked great see pic.
Nice !

I would like to do something like that except I have no access to my rafters in the garage. My rafters were drywalled in when I bought the house.
ehunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 07:05 PM   #14
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,693
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

Drywall in an attached garage is part of the national fire code. If you have an attached garage with rafters exposed it is a deviation from the code. Some local building codes used to not require the firewall but most do.

Problem with an engine hoist is post use storage is a headache. Even the folders are space hogs.

What I would suggest is start searching Craigslist as there are many owners who have hit their head on the boom one time too many. They go cheap. Use this to cover a wider area: http://www.searchtempest.com/

Local I found a hoist + stand for 125+60 asking. I bet 3 U.S. Grants would take it home.
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 07:42 PM   #15
ehunter
Senior Member
ehunter has a spectacular aura aboutehunter has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pacifica by San Francisco – 5sp – Original engine rebuild as documented by this site @ 177K due to high oil consumption. Mpgs back to 40+. Car runs smooth, like a top. Now at 220k. Successful rebuild !
Posts: 1,468

1996 SL2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

I searched CL earlier today. There are not any used hoists at a competitively new price within a 50mile radius of where I live. I could drive to HF 20 miles away and buy all three, picker, stand and leveler brand new without the PITA of dealing with all those other people.

So now what is the procedure?

1) remove engine from car and mount onto engine stand
2) remove cylinder head and transmission?
3) take the block to engine rebuilder to measure what ever needs measuring
4) use measurements to decide on the type of rings or bearings to buy
5) rebuilder installs rings, pistons, and x,y,z or do I?
6) install clutch, remount transmission
7) re-install cylinder head
8) drop engine back to car

?
ehunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 09:14 PM   #16
macbox
Senior Member
macbox will become famous soon enough
 
macbox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,207
 

1995 SC2
1995 SC2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

Trans gets separated from engine while sitting on the ground. Mount the thing from the engine stand onto the block, then lift it back up and maneuver it onto the stand.

I like how you have this in eight steps. You have the basic idea, however, this is very detailed work, and you will need little bags with labels on them for the bolts, and a digital camera that can sit in the toolbox without being worried about to document the disassembly process.

I am going through the rebuild process now, as a first timer. I recommend reading the cboss thread, http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=145250

I've changed a few steps for you, some things are obvious when you get to them, some of them are not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehunter View Post
I searched CL earlier today. There are not any used hoists at a competitively new price within a 50mile radius of where I live. I could drive to HF 20 miles away and buy all three, picker, stand and leveler brand new without the PITA of dealing with all those other people.

So now what is the procedure?


1) remove engine/Trans from car.
1a) Separate tranny from engine.
1b) Mount engine stand mount onto block
1c) Lift engine and stand mount assembly and slide into stand
2) remove cylinder head without slamming pistons into valves by forgetting about the 3/16" drill bits in the cam sprockets like macbox did.
3) take the block to engine rebuilder to measure what ever needs measuring
4) use measurements to decide on the type of rings or bearings to buy
5) rebuilder installs rings, pistons, and x,y,z or do I?
6) install clutch, remount transmission
7) re-install cylinder head
8) drop engine back to car

?
...
"The Twins"
#4, "Betty" 1995 SC2m, 167K, rebuilt engine, rolling project. Garage Queen. Still squeaks and rattles.
#7 "Betsy" 1995 SC2, 142K, Winter Beater.
macbox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 09:51 PM   #17
10Miler
Advanced Member
10Miler is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 764
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehunter View Post
Pistons with drain holes: I donít have a drill press to drill my own holes. How professionally does this need to be done? Does it warrant buying a small cheap drill press?
Others have said you want a drill press for this, with shims for the pistons as they are soft. You don't want to touch the ring sidewalls. I was a machinist for 9 years or so, and this would have been such an easy job then!
10Miler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 10:41 PM   #18
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,693
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

Yes. A decent home bench top drill press will do the job. Hand will not work. If you end up reboring the block then the new pistons come with the drain holes. This is about a puny as you wan to get though: http://www.harborfreight.com/5-speed...ess-38119.html You also need a decent sized "V" block to set them in. You can make a V block out of wood and it will work fine for drilling pistons.
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 11:03 PM   #19
ehunter
Senior Member
ehunter has a spectacular aura aboutehunter has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pacifica by San Francisco – 5sp – Original engine rebuild as documented by this site @ 177K due to high oil consumption. Mpgs back to 40+. Car runs smooth, like a top. Now at 220k. Successful rebuild !
Posts: 1,468

1996 SL2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

Thanks for the Cboss link Mr Macbox,

The thread is somewhat unorthodox for me to read as the guy never uses a lift and extracts his motor in stages due to weight. I also did not catch on to what he did to pull the block/trans out and then to extract the pistons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macbox View Post
Trans gets separated from engine while sitting on the ground. Mount the thing from the engine stand onto the block, then lift it back up and maneuver it onto the stand.
Why separate the Trans on the ground when it seems all you have to do is swing the motor over and bolt it onto the engine stand directly? Is it because the block bolts to the stand via the Trans-mount-to-block bolt holes?

Steps 3,4 and 5 I donít have a good concept as to what happens. I am trying to corral all the costs/steps for this project as I am not 100% committed until I feel like all these black boxes are gone.

OldNuc,

Do you think most machine shops wouldnít mind drilling the holes for less than the cost of the $69+shipping press you noted?

Machine shops will be a new business for me to ever walk into so I donít have a clue how cost friendly they might/might not be.
ehunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 11:34 PM   #20
macbox
Senior Member
macbox will become famous soon enough
 
macbox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,207
 

1995 SC2
1995 SC2
Default Re: Guess I wont be be on the road for too much longer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehunter View Post
Why separate the Trans on the ground when it seems all you have to do is swing the motor over and bolt it onto the engine stand directly? Is it because the block bolts to the stand via the Trans-mount-to-block bolt holes?
Yes. Flywheel has to come off too. It is also a good idea to break loose but do not loosen the bolts that hold the rear main seal carrier at that point in time.
The stand to block bolts, some use the bolts from the trans. http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=157282
I ended up with M12 x 1.75, 90mm bolts, it is what works with my stand which I got off craigslist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehunter View Post
Steps 3,4 and 5 I donít have a good concept as to what happens. I am trying to corral all the costs/steps for this project as I am not 100% committed until I feel like all these black boxes are gone.
That is a good idea. Being that an engine rebuild was on my 'bucket list' and I am in the rustbelt, I am done with step 4 and have not started on step 5 since I am performing rust remediation and this is a summer project. You will have an easier time without the rust since you are in the land of the sagging headliner instead of the rustbelt.

The shop will tell you what will fit for bearings and rings. For pistons, drilling drainback holes or new pistons are an option. I never got the actual numbers, but I had two recommendations for the same shop, and I did not ask for the numbers. He did give me some plastiguage so I will use that to look at clearances on the way to putting it back together and that will become part of the records for the engine.

I seem to recall cboss' engine removal process was unconventional. As long as you take off enough stuff and disconnect everything, then it is a hoist/tilt/move/hoist/tilt/move dance until the engine is clear. You can hear angels singing when the engine is floating above the engine bay.

Here is another rebuild thread. http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=141234
Also, if you scroll down to the bottom, there will be other pertinent threads listed there.
...
"The Twins"
#4, "Betty" 1995 SC2m, 167K, rebuilt engine, rolling project. Garage Queen. Still squeaks and rattles.
#7 "Betsy" 1995 SC2, 142K, Winter Beater.
macbox is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
98 SL2 wont start, horn wont work and key fob wont work blade1981m S-Series Tech 4 08-29-2010 11:07 PM
97 sc dohc- getting gas & spark, wont crank without ether, wont stay cranked after??? P.Johnston85 S-Series Tech 37 06-07-2010 06:29 PM
I am no longer a saturnfan... adamsaulnier S-Series General 5 06-18-2008 07:35 PM
1998 SL2 Wont start. Starter wont Spin Gamerjoe504 S-Series Tech 3 07-07-2007 06:33 PM
sc2 alarm went off last night now remote wont work & car wont start kre8ive_kustomz S-Series Tech 1 03-27-2007 08:46 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:14 AM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.