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Old 07-09-2007, 08:10 AM   #1
cdavidhess
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Default Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

About the the new Boeing 787:

It’s the company’s first all-new commercial jetliner since the twin-engine 777 rolled out in 1994 and is Boeing’s first passenger airplane built primarily of man-made carbon-fiber reinforced plastic, known as composite.

Because composites are lightweight and don’t corrode or fatigue the way metal does, Boeing says the 787 will use 20 percent less fuel and will be 30 percent less expensive to maintain.

Jeff Hawk, Boeing’s director of certification for the 787, told reporters that the 787 is 65 percent more fuel efficient than the 707, which ushered in the jet age in the 1950s.

Those claims have caught the attention of cash-strapped airlines worldwide.

“This is a technology-breaking aircraft,’’ Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon, in Seattle for the 787 rollout, said during Friday’s media briefing.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19665201/
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Old 07-09-2007, 08:52 AM   #2
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

Bet it burns a lot of oil...LOL
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Old 07-09-2007, 09:02 AM   #3
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

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Originally Posted by cdavidhess View Post
Boeing’s first passenger airplane built primarily of man-made carbon-fiber reinforced plastic, known as composite.
But Cadillac, Buick Oldsmobile and the Corvette have been doing that for decades.

Everytime I hear about carbon fiber, now I think of my buddy that was going on about it last week. I'll share with you a quote from that buddy that recently went for a ride in our friend's new Z06. During the ride they had to get gas and my friend, the passenger could hear the gas sloshing around right behind him as the tank was filled.

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Originally Posted by Uzzy's buddy Scotty
I'm sittin there listening to the gas sloshing around in the tank and it sounds like it's right under my ass. Then I realize how fast this car can go and the fact that I'm surrounded by nothing more than some tube steel wrapped in f#@&ing BED SHEETS AND GLUE! And to top it all off there's a gas tank right behind my assh*le! I'm gonna die, but damn it's gonna be fun!
Bed sheets and glue! That's funny!
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Old 07-09-2007, 12:14 PM   #4
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdavidhess View Post
About the the new Boeing 787:

It’s the company’s first all-new commercial jetliner since the twin-engine 777 rolled out in 1994 and is Boeing’s first passenger airplane built primarily of man-made carbon-fiber reinforced plastic, known as composite.

Because composites are lightweight and don’t corrode or fatigue the way metal does, Boeing says the 787 will use 20 percent less fuel and will be 30 percent less expensive to maintain.

Jeff Hawk, Boeing’s director of certification for the 787, told reporters that the 787 is 65 percent more fuel efficient than the 707, which ushered in the jet age in the 1950s.

Those claims have caught the attention of cash-strapped airlines worldwide.

“This is a technology-breaking aircraft,’’ Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon, in Seattle for the 787 rollout, said during Friday’s media briefing.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19665201/
Composites (graphite) have been used in airplanes for 20years. Trouble is, they are more expensive to make and fixing a graphite plane is much more labour intensive.

Don't forget, only eight panels were "composite" on a Saturn, while 99% was still metal. A car still needs a metal structure for a variety of reasons, moslty due to crash-worthiness. A 787 does not need to meet 5mph bumber or sde impact ratings. As well, a 787 is $35 million and even airlines can't afford to buy them anymore, where an ION (in Canada) was $16,000.

Food for thought.

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Old 07-09-2007, 01:05 PM   #5
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

There's a big difference between carbon-fiber composites and polymer. Carbon Fiber is what F1, Indy and LeMans racing cars are made of.
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Old 07-09-2007, 04:03 PM   #6
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

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Originally Posted by saturncanuck View Post
As well, a 787 is $35 million...
Try $165 million.
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Old 07-09-2007, 05:00 PM   #7
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

I was an engineer at Boeing working on the 787. There are some potential hurdles to overcome with using a carbon fiber airplane- like how to repair the damage when the luggage conveyer is banged up against the side of the airplane, or when they forget to unplug the GPU (ground power unit) and begin to taxi back and the plug rips the connector clean off, or a bird strike.

Part of the fuel savings on this airplane come from the fact that the exterior of the airplane will remain smooth while flying at altitude. A traditional aluminum airplane will experience some "bubbling" between the frame sections due to the pressure differential. This uneven surface causes drag. Also, I believe the 787 will not use any bleed air (exhaust air diverted off the engine to heat and pressurize the cabin, de-ice the leading edges, etc) which saps power away from the engine. The 787 will use an enormous amount of electricity however, and there was talk about using the expelled heat from the forward electrical equipment bay (under the flight deck and first class) to heat the forward cargo bay. I don't know where they ended up on that issue though.

Cool airplane though. The windows are HUGE. The interior is suppose to be really neat (I left Boeing before they started combining the different sections).
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Old 07-10-2007, 11:00 AM   #8
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by spencerb View Post
Try $165 million.
Man you got ripped off!

I just bought mine at Boeing of Thornhill, and that's how much I worked the deal for.

The sales guy is Mark Roberts.

LOL

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Old 07-10-2007, 01:41 PM   #9
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

Quote:
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I was an engineer at Boeing working on the 787. There are some potential hurdles to overcome with using a carbon fiber airplane- like how to repair the damage when the luggage conveyer is banged up against the side of the airplane, or when they forget to unplug the GPU (ground power unit) and begin to taxi back and the plug rips the connector clean off, or a bird strike.
Well I work for an airline now. Some large aircraft have used composite structures for fairings, control surfaces, wing tips and radomes (nosecone) for many years. While most of those parts are not considered structural, the repair proceedures are fairly well known. I agree that if the actual fuselage were damaged, other considerations would have to be taken as it would be structural.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom95SCm
Also, I believe the 787 will not use any bleed air (exhaust air diverted off the engine to heat and pressurize the cabin, de-ice the leading edges, etc) which saps power away from the engine.
Bleed air is the correct term but I think that throwing the word "exhaust" is a bit misleading. Pressurized commercial jet aircraft DO use air bled off the compressor section of the engine. This air is VERY hot but is NOT exhaust. The engines are designed to produce more compressed air than it needs to operate in order to provide the needed compressed air to pressurize the aircraft and heat the wing leading edges for wing anti-icing.
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Old 07-11-2007, 09:28 AM   #10
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

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Well I work for an airline now. Some large aircraft have used composite structures for fairings, control surfaces, wing tips and radomes (nosecone) for many years. While most of those parts are not considered structural, the repair proceedures are fairly well known. I agree that if the actual fuselage were damaged, other considerations would have to be taken as it would be structural.
True, but when you take a bird strike with one of those airplanes, you replace the damaged panel and send the damaged one off to get repaired. And then you drill out some rivets/unbolt some bolts to remove the damaged structure and rivet/bolt in the new structure. Easy-peasy. But when you take a bird strike on a composite jet, replacing large sections of damaged structure is more difficult because everything is essentially glued together. But they have plans for repairing it, so it should work out.
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Old 07-11-2007, 02:49 PM   #11
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

I just have bad images of this aircraft breaking apart in flight, especially as the structures age. Hope I'm wrong on that. Do we even have good models for stress and fatigue on composite structures?

The 787 is boring. I never thought I'd see the Concorde retired without something equally fast at least on the drawing board. It's well past time to break the Mach 0.85 barrier in commercial aviation.
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Old 07-11-2007, 03:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom92SCm View Post
I was an engineer at Boeing working on the 787. There are some potential hurdles to overcome with using a carbon fiber airplane- like how to repair the damage when the luggage conveyer is banged up against the side of the airplane, or when they forget to unplug the GPU (ground power unit) and begin to taxi back and the plug rips the connector clean off, or a bird strike.

Part of the fuel savings on this airplane come from the fact that the exterior of the airplane will remain smooth while flying at altitude. A traditional aluminum airplane will experience some "bubbling" between the frame sections due to the pressure differential. This uneven surface causes drag. Also, I believe the 787 will not use any bleed air (exhaust air diverted off the engine to heat and pressurize the cabin, de-ice the leading edges, etc) which saps power away from the engine. The 787 will use an enormous amount of electricity however, and there was talk about using the expelled heat from the forward electrical equipment bay (under the flight deck and first class) to heat the forward cargo bay. I don't know where they ended up on that issue though.

Cool airplane though. The windows are HUGE. The interior is suppose to be really neat (I left Boeing before they started combining the different sections).

So are the longerons/stringers still aluminum extrusions or are they formed when installed, and are they bonded or are they riveted/hi-loks, to the outer skin. Did they use a monocouque design or semi-monocoque design?
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

Quote:
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I just have bad images of this aircraft breaking apart in flight, especially as the structures age. Hope I'm wrong on that. Do we even have good models for stress and fatigue on composite structures?
Composites don't fatigue.

And yes the stringers and frames are also composite. They are placed in with jigs and glued/bonded into place. There is very little metal structure on the 787. I worked on the Section 41 (the first 600 inches of the airplane) and the only major metal structure is the nose wheel well (which also served as a major electrical ground plane) and possibly the door frames. There are problems with corrosion when you place carbon composite too close to most metals- there needs to be a fiberglass isolation treatment applied. All the rest is CFRP composite which can be up to 1/2" thick in some spots. As a contrast to an aluminum airplane- the skin thickness in most spots on an airplane can be as thin as 0.033"-0.040" thick.

Quote:
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The 787 is boring. I never thought I'd see the Concorde retired without something equally fast at least on the drawing board. It's well past time to break the Mach 0.85 barrier in commercial aviation.
Oh, there's things on the drawing boards. The market just isn't right for it right now.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:22 PM   #14
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

Sorry, but I don't want to be flying on a 10 or 15 year old plastic plane that's glued together! I don't even know how much I trust the thing when it's new! Sure, modern fighter jets make extensive use of composites, but at least they have ejection seats!
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:27 PM   #15
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

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Sorry, but I don't want to be flying on a 10 or 15 year old plastic plane that's glued together! I don't even know how much I trust the thing when it's new! Sure, modern fighter jets make extensive use of composites, but at least they have ejection seats!
Well, I hope you like driving then because up next is an all composite 737 replacement. Eventually, all the major carriers will be operating composite airplanes.

And even Airbus might get into the all composite airplane game with the A350 XWB (if that program ever gets the green light). Currently they just use alot of composites in their wings.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:41 PM   #16
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

I'm sure that eventually the technology will mature, but I don't think it's that mature now. I hope it doesn't take a series of deHavilland Comet type failures to learn about any deficiencies.
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Old 07-11-2007, 05:24 PM   #17
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

For anyone not familiar with the Comet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6-VIfWGUdE
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Old 07-11-2007, 05:55 PM   #18
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

Also, while I know the pilot was blamed for making improper rudder inputs, was the composite tail on the A300 a factor in the AA Flight 587 disaster? I still wonder about that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ol6mkfLul8
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Old 07-11-2007, 06:00 PM   #19
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by VTHokie00SL2 View Post
For anyone not familiar with the Comet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6-VIfWGUdE
Holy Crap! I never heard of that. See what happens when all you've got is bedsheet and glue between you and the Grim Reaper?
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Old 07-11-2007, 06:00 PM   #20
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Default Re: Boeing is going in opposite direction than Saturn

Quote:
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Also, while I know the pilot was blamed for making improper rudder inputs, was the composite tail on the A300 a factor in the AA Flight 587 disaster? I still wonder about that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ol6mkfLul8
From the info. I gathered, the rudder system was never engineered to withstand that type of deflection that the Pilot (or F.O.) introduced so quickly and abrubtly from one side to another because of the wake turbulance from the previous 747 that had just took off.
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