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Old 09-10-2015, 02:21 AM   #1
krismanme
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Default 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

Good evening all,
I am currently having issues starting my 2002 vue 3.0 awd 145000 mi. It all began a few weeks ago while out in town the vehicle would would sputter and bog down when applying any power, I was able to crawl home by lightly touching the peddle, at the time I had no ses/mil on the dash but a quick code scan showed misfire cylinder 1. I cleared the code got home and discontinued driving the vehicle.

Fast forward to this past weekend I began troubleshooting by verifying the plugs were good, I removed the intake manifold and and all associated connectors/ hoses to get at the plugs. The plugs seemed to be in decent condition, cylinder 1 plug had the most buildup but I've seen much worse. I put everything back together , and attempted to start the engine, turns over fires up for a second then stalls, attempted pushing pedal to the floor same result. I noticed at this time fuel gauge read empty. I was pretty sure it had gas prior but just to be on the safe side I added an additional 2 gallons. Same result starts then stalls. Fuel gauge still shows empty, I swap a new fuel filter in same result. I test fuel system from test port I'm getting 53-55 psi with car in RUN and I hear the pump kick on for 2-3 seconds. Fuel seems to be good.

Battery is losing juice quick at this point so the remainder of starts I have jumper cables connected. About this time I realize rhe rear Defogger Is no longer illuminating, the door chimes no longer sound and the door locks and key fob aren't working, and I get no security light, even in RUN test. I pull the intake manifold and remove the plugs and they are all fouled all 6 of them smell of fuel. I reconnect both icm's up outside of the engine and ground them, I check for spark and see weak spark on some cylinders and no spark on others. I Scan for codes this time I have 3, p1779, p1780, u2107. I unplug battery and pull bcm/ecm fuses no change. Still no start, I attempt the 30 minute ecm/bcm marry procedure no change. I check all grounds cleaning and reterminating. I verify I am getting full 12 volts to both icm's pin 4 I believe although resistance between pin 5 and eng ign fuse is 0 then OL every second. I found one loose connector and made a seperate thread for that one but it seems to be unrelated.

At this point engine won't even fire up at all it will turn over but that is it. I can't quite see a common denominator here, alot of these issues point to a dead bcm, but I'm pretty sure bcm does not control spark, since ecm handles spark there may be an issue with both. What should I be checking next? Can I rule out the bcm? Can I rule out the ecm? are there electrical troubleshooting steps I could take to narrow this down anymore? Thank you for Any Help you can provide.

Timing belt, water pump, tensioners, power steering pulley were all replaced wabout 5000 mi ago.
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Old 09-10-2015, 07:58 AM   #2
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

We've seen a couple of P1780 codes that turned out to be a bad ECM . . .
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=157989

I've heard all the control modules in the '02-03s are prone to failure.
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Old 09-11-2015, 02:26 AM   #3
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

Today I was able to test the CKP and I get 900-915ohms across the pins, I was able to verify I am getting voltage to the CMP, 12 volts to 2 pins with the rhe key in RUN, and verified a good ground pin as well. I Also Noticed Fog lights, DRL, and high beams are not illuminating and front and rear wipers won't run automatically after I spray anymore. I plan on hooking up a DMM to the CMP circuit while starting to ensure I'm getting voltage variations.
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:01 AM   #4
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

Quote:
Originally Posted by krismanme View Post
Today I was able to test the CKP and I get 900-915ohms across the pins, I was able to verify I am getting voltage to the CMP, 12 volts to 2 pins with the rhe key in RUN, and verified a good ground pin as well. I Also Noticed Fog lights, DRL, and high beams are not illuminating and front and rear wipers won't run automatically after I spray anymore. I plan on hooking up a DMM to the CMP circuit while starting to ensure I'm getting voltage variations.
I went nuts testing my CMP and finally figured out you can disconnect it and the engine will still start. Your BCM is no doubt on the fritz - I have the same inop accessories - but that will not cause a no start.
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Old 09-11-2015, 08:43 AM   #5
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

krismanme, your battery dying and using another battery for boosting? Can you charge the main battery? While a boost battery may be good for jump starting, maybe the dead battery is keeping the voltages low enough to cause false symptoms. Since everything needs power, a dead battery not fully charged along with a jumper battery may create an unusual condition. If you are using one of those portable jump batteries connected only when needed to jump start this car along with failed starting, a dead/dying battery may be interfering with getting the engine running. Either recharge the main battery or have it tested. If you can charge the battery at home, do so before using it again or before taking it in for testing. Good store tests can detect a discharged battery needing a charge from a dying one that should be replaced, especially if yours is close to the end of its battery warranty.

One hint of the engine trying to start while spark testing displayed weak spark with soaked plugs; the injectors are working and several failed starting attempts caused engine flooding. A flooded engine drowns spark where subsequent starts should be with throttle held open. This tells the ecm to stop injector operation during starting to help dilute the flooded engine with more air. A fully charged battery is needed for this as several attempts may be needed until the engine sputters to life. Using a portable jump start battery may not have the reserve capacity for several jumps with a dead main battery. They're great for instant jump starts but may not work for prolonged jump starting, adding to problems.

Hopefully your problems are about a dead battery requiring a full charge or replacement and the flooded engine prevented an engine start.
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Old 09-11-2015, 09:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

I have been charging the battery with my sc2, I've been leaving jumper cables connected temporarily when I was doing other things. Pretty much the alternator from the sc2 was charging the battery for the vue. I let the car sit overnight and just checked voltage with a DMM 12.5 volts to ground, even though that reads a good battery I decided to pull the battery from the sc2 it tested at 12.9 volts. Car turns over hard and fast almost starts, then right back to turning over slowly. I tried maybe 15 times mostly first 8 times with the pedal to the floor, than I began varying the pedal, still no start. I'm wondwring if a weak battery may have caused the weak spark I was seeing originally (that or a bad ground) and my issue may be a plugged cat? That would explain the original symptoms of sputtering at high throttle, I'm going to attempt a start with the o2 sensor removed to see if anything changes.
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Old 09-11-2015, 09:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

Well, if the Vue battery can turn over several times normally before slowing down as a sign of battery discharge and you're sure injectors are working (plugs soaked with fuel), intermittent spark may be from one or both coil packs failing. Each coil pack has a set of three coils so one faulty coil means the entire coil pack needs to be replaced. While I wouldn't like performing the following task, each coil pack may need to be checked again; removing both coil packs and plugs and reconnecting them to lay out in the open for another spark test. The fuel pump fuse should be removed to prevent any more fuel injection during spark tests and replaced when done. With plugs connected to coils and electrically connected to their wiring harnesses, plug bases grounded to the engine block, spark should be seen on every plug when someone turns the ignition switch to START. It's rare for our 3.0L V6 engines to have faulty coil packs but there's always a first time. I cannot remember the last time a coil pack failed in either this forum or the L300 forums. If you decide to try another spark test, check plugs again for fuel - wet plugs indicate the crank sensor is working to allow the ecm to operate; fuel pump, ignition system for spark and pulse injectors. Wet plugs mean the crank sensor is working but the ignition system needs two operating coil packs in order to fire every plug. The ecm provides the timing for spark and switches each coil to create spark on its plug.

It's worth a try, disconnecting the cam position sensor to see if this helps with starting.
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Old 09-12-2015, 10:05 AM   #8
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start- get a clue?

For what its worth!!- experience here talkinf since Ignitions went from points to modern cars with computers!! NEVER !! NEVER =EVER - Jump start a car-with jumper cables!! Why?? Most likely every owner will never turn off the ignition key switch when a battery is low or wont crank!! Jumping or even installing a battery charger - with a key "ON" will induce a voltage spike in the entire system!! Computers dont like this at all!! remember there are 2 completely different systems in these cars!! A engine cpm & a body CPM!! Many dont differentiate the 2 ! You may have 1 or even 2 bad computers!! Get that battery out & charge it and then = do a load test on it!! Also measure =specific gravity of EVERY CELL!! If anything is suspect? replace the battery!! Then look for a voltage draw on the battery! Key =off!! Voltage draws- can be found by removing each fuse or relay-noticing any sounds of relays that may be stuck-IE: seat belts , ect.! Used cpm's can be had on ebay or even salvage yards. I recently had a bad engine cpm- found 1 with a 6 month warranty for 60 bux!! This car never tossed any codes!! Remember = these new electronic engine starting systems -MUST have a specific cranking RPM to start properly!! weak battery. bad battery - ?? Get a new / or = charged known good battery & start testing & see what spark does !!
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Old 09-12-2015, 10:48 AM   #9
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

Can you also get us a better photo of exactly where your homeless connector is so I can find it on my VUE?
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Old 09-14-2015, 02:26 AM   #10
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

Chazberry I have posted new pictures in my original thread, let me know of its any easier to discern.

Fdryer I will attempt reassembling the coil packs outside of the engine with plugs intact, do you have any advice on how to keep the coil springs from ejecting the plugs? What about a good place to ground them or technique to ground the coils/plugs, my current method may have been an issue all along. I currently have alligator clips running from both coil grounds to the drivers strut tower bolts and another clip from the washer of the individual plug to the same ground.

Twinpilot001 I don't take your words of advice lightly and realize I may have done more harm than good. I don't currently have an effective way of charging the battery as I live in an apartment complex and would require an extension cord running from my house to the parking lot. If I am to purchasr something of the sort do you have any recommendations?

For what it's worth I attempted starts removing both o2 sensors, and removed and cleaned the backfire valve, all to no avail. Thank you all for your time and support thus far.
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Old 09-14-2015, 06:03 AM   #11
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

Each coil pack is grounded thru its wiring connections. The spark plugs connected to their boots are the high voltage side and needs each plug base wired to engine ground so spark can jump from the center electrode to the side electrode which is electrically grounded thru its base when threaded into each cylinder. The engine block is providing a high voltage path. As far as trying to make the plugs stay in their spring loaded boots, I would imagine something like filament tape (the type having fiberglass threads embedded in the adhesive tape to allow strong tape from tearing. Cleaning the boots and spark plugs of grease, oil and dirt should allow taping plugs to boots. Individual wires or a single bare wire wrapped a few turns around each plug base and end wire connected to any part of the engine block will act as a ground connection. Use any nearby bolt; unscrewed enough to wrap this bare wire to and tightening it. When plugs are removed from cylinder heads, the loss of compression will put less strain on the starter as it spins the engine faster for a quick spark test.

An easier way to test for spark, presuming fuel is being injected into each cylinder; spray starting fluid into the throttle body while someone turns the ignition key to START. Starting fluid and spark should allow the engine to run.

When plugs were removed, did you see or smell fuel? This is an indication of each injector operating to allow fuel pressure meter fuel. Several failed starting attempts should result in wet plugs.
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Old 09-14-2015, 09:36 AM   #12
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

Quote:
Originally Posted by krismanme View Post
Chazberry I have posted new pictures in my original thread, let me know of its any easier to discern.
Take a look at the pic I posted in that thread.
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Old 09-19-2015, 06:17 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

Chazberry I assume you saw the resolution in that thread?

Fdryer I failed to mention earlier that I had previously attempted starting with starter fluid to no avail. I removed both icm's and plugs again and noted all smelled of fuel. 2 plugs were fouled and the other four were squeaky clean. I didn't note which 2 cylinders had fouled plugs but I do know it was one from each bank. I hooked up the icms externally and attempted to start with spark plugs intact. I used the same plug for every test. Cylinder 4 and 5 would not spark. However 1,2,3,6 all had a strong white spark.

This leads me to believe I have 2 faulty icm's, is there something else that would limit spark to cylinder 4,5?
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Old 09-19-2015, 06:54 PM   #14
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

Each ignition coil pack, as you know, are sealed one piece units and not interchangeable. Cylinders 1, 3, and 5 are fired from one coil pack, cylinders 2, 4 and 6 are fired from the other coil pack. Since you have two plugs not firing from two coil packs, all you can do is check the terminal connections for corrosion, wire harness for damage/chafing, clean them and try swapping plugs around. At this point with two possible coil packs being faulty, ensure its not plugs before concluding both coil packs failed. Each coil pack contains three separate ignition coils so one failure means the entire pack is replaced.
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Old 09-20-2015, 01:25 PM   #15
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

Hi
The coil packs 1-3-5 and 2-4-6 are interchangeable with each other despite having differant part numbers. you could swap them and see if the problem follows. so plug coil pack 1-3-5 into the 2-4-6 position and the 2-4-6 into the
1-3-6 position .And if 3,6 (4,5) are bad in new position then its not the coil packs. if 3, and 6 (4,5)are bad its the coil packs. i am using the numbers that are printed on top of coil packs and not cylinder position. Cylinder position in parentheses.
...
2003 Vue 6cyl 2WD
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Old 09-20-2015, 01:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

Quote:
Originally Posted by hawthorne View Post
Hi
The coil packs 1-3-5 and 2-4-6 are interchangeable with each other despite having differant part numbers. you could swap them and see if the problem follows. so plug coil pack 1-3-5 into the 2-4-6 position and the 2-4-6 into the
1-3-6 position .And if 3,6 (4,5) are bad in new position then its not the coil packs. if 3, and 6 (4,5)are bad its the coil packs. i am using the numbers that are printed on top of coil packs and not cylinder position. Cylinder position in parentheses.
should say if 4,5 are still bad its the coil packs, cannot edit.
...
2003 Vue 6cyl 2WD
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Old 09-24-2015, 12:39 AM   #17
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

Hawthorne thank you for the additonal troubleshooting steps, however i purchased 2 replacement icm's an installed them this evening.

Fdryer i believe my original test using a single spark plug accross all coils, most working some not, proved the plug to be satisfactory. Your suspicion that both icm's should be replaced was spot on, i replaced both icm's with ac delco replacements via amazon. I have yet to put the engine back together but my test with icm removed showed spark accross all 6 cylinders.

I also, heeding the advice of other forums, cleaned the icm connectors/contacts with qd connector cleaner and toothbrush, and then applied wd-40 to contacts(apparently its conductive). Not sure if this helped at all but couldnt hurt.
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Old 09-24-2015, 12:55 AM   #18
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

Also worth noting is that the plug boots can be removed by twisting at the base, unserneath reveals the springs and you can inapect for obvious signs of damage
image.jpg
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Old 09-24-2015, 01:05 AM   #19
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

If i had realized this sooner i wouldve caught the bad coil at cylinder 4.

image.jpg

It shattered as i attempted to remove the boot, im assuming either the boot and coil melted together, or heat made the coil brittle.
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Old 09-24-2015, 11:01 AM   #20
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 3.0 no start

The placement of ignition coil packs directly over plugs strains plastic design technology as heat cycling accelerates wear. Brittleness seems to be one effect. The trunk light bezel in my car fell apart when removed for a project, necessitating a quick epoxy repair. Same brittleness as plastic dries out.
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