2004 3.5 V6 Multiple Misfire Codes

[todd8]

Help Folks!

On my way home from work today, my car started bucking and the check engine light (orange engine light) started flashing. After a short period, the light went out and the car ran fine. I stopped at autozone and they said codes 0300 - 0306 were stored meaning multiple misfire.

I checked all coils and plugs and found no problems. Everything else seems fine as well.

Started it up again, and the same thing happened. It seems like when it warms up, the problem goes away. It has been rather cold here, around 14 to 20 degrees F. Autozone guy said it was probably the crank sensor.

Anybody have any suggestions? Anything is appreciated.

[far2grumpy]

Originally Posted by todd8

Help Folks!

On my way home from work today, my car started bucking and the check engine light (orange engine light) started flashing. After a short period, the light went out and the car ran fine. I stopped at autozone and they said codes 0300 - 0306 were stored meaning multiple misfire.

I checked all coils and plugs and found no problems. Everything else seems fine as well.

Started it up again, and the same thing happened. It seems like when it warms up, the problem goes away. It has been rather cold here, around 14 to 20 degrees F. Autozone guy said it was probably the crank sensor.

Anybody have any suggestions? Anything is appreciated.

Todd ... codes were 0300 and 0306 or 0300, 0301, 0302, etc.?

I believe 0300 is random misfire and 0306 would be cylinder 6 misfire. Did you actually remove one or more plugs and check for condition or fouling?

If problem repeats as cylinder 6 miss I'd try moving the coil pack to another cylinder to see if problem follows.

How many miles do you have on Vue?

I wouldn't dismiss the CKP but it has its own codes and I suspect one or more would have been stored.

How about fuel? Any recent changes in stations? Do you use ethanol-blend, and if not, you might add a container of water remover to the tank.

You might also be looking at potential fuel pump or fuel filter issue. There's a test port on fuel line (under air intake tube) in case you have, or can borrow a fuel pressure gauge.

[todd8]

Auto Zone Tech said all codes 0300 0301 0302 0303 0304 0305 0306 were present.

car has 118,000 miles on it.

I didn't switch gas stations, but did just fill up yesterday morning. Car ran fine right after fill up, and rest of way to work. Problem started upon start up on the way home.

[far2grumpy]

Originally Posted by todd8

Auto Zone Tech said all codes 0300 0301 0302 0303 0304 0305 0306 were present.

car has 118,000 miles on it.

I didn't switch gas stations, but did just fill up yesterday morning. Car ran fine right after fill up, and rest of way to work. Problem started upon start up on the way home.

I'm not even going to ask if you owned the Vue when it rolled over 100K and if the recommended maintenance was taken care of. (Wouldn't matter if problem is CKP - see below)

I'm assuming you have no indication of a failing electrical system (battery and alternator).

You should try to avoid driving when the CEL is flashing - this could mean unburned fuel is being dumped into catalytic converter which will turn the innards to a solid mass of blockage.

Since all cylinders are unhappy it could very well be the crank-position sensor, commonly referred to as CKP.

I've attached service manual extracts for misfire and replacing CKP. If you decide to replace DIY let me know and I forward the files for accessing the CKP.

[todd8]

Gene,

Thanks for the advice. Between last night and this morning before going to work, I cleaned just about every sensor and valve that did not require dismantling the engine. I also checked all plugs and wires, checked for vacuum leaks using the carb cleaner trick, and verified fuel pressure to the fuel rail.
I added a bottle of Techron to the tank yesterday, and called it quits.

This morning I started it up, and surprisingly, even at 10 degrees F, it turned right over, fired, and ran fine. So at 5:30 AM I ran to Walmart for some dry gas as you suggested. Drove the car there and back with no stumbling and no CEL! I let the ran run for awhile to circulate the Techron and dry gas while I got ready for work. Made the drive to work without any issue. I am beginning to suspect that there may have been an issue with the gas, as I just filled up the tank yesterday morning, and the problem arose yesterday afternoon when the car was cold. If I recall, Fdryer always indicated that the CKP will usually fail when hot, not cold, so I am hoping that this is not my problem.

I obtained the car with 116, 000 miles, and not knowing if the 100,000 services were completed, I did them myself, with the exception of the valve lash adjustment. If the problem were to persist, I might look into that, as a possible suspect. In any case, I appreciate your help, and should there be any other recommendations, please let me know. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the CKP is not the problem, as I really don't feel like tearing into that timing cover again.

[far2grumpy]

Todd - I feel your pain and also have my fingers crossed hoping you'll be OK.

I don't recall much forum traffic regarding the 3.5 CKP but we wake up in a new world each morning. You can check DC resistance of the device by accessing the leads - anything between 800-1200 is supposedly good. But, if the device fails intermittently the resistance check won't help.

I belong to old school regarding valve lash - if they ain't clattering and/or I can't hear a tell-tale "spit" at the tail pipe - I don't mess with them (as a stand-alone effort - it'd be different if I had to change leaky gaskets).

[mlc5]

My wifes vue had some problems last year with similar mileage.. Car would shake a bit at startup/idle.. then get better as it warmed up... Other symptoms included a lean misfire code. My mechanic went nuts trying to track this down.. but was very diligent...
First he determined the intake gasket had a leak.. and that addressed about 90% of the issue, but he noticed the fuel rails were out of spec/not perfect, which bugged him... he tried several things, and eventually figure it to be the valves being out of adjustment.. They were too tight/quiety , rather than the usual.. .which made it harder to diagnose....but in the end.. that did the trick...
Hope this helps...

Mike

[fdryer]

todd8, I've followed this thread with interest. Access to the cps (your ckp) is about as painless as root canal. By chance did you have a look at the crank gear and sensor when the timing cover was off? I'm wondering if () debris like metal shavings stuck to the gear and possibly causing interference with cps signal generation. Purely supposition on my part and not inferring or implying anything wrong with your 3.5L engine. The location of sensor and gear may lend itself to picking up metal interference. I don't know if this scenario is even possible in the scheme of things.

As far as comparing Honda's cps to GM's, the operations are the same but different conditions may affect each one in odd ways not spelled out in any service manual - real world conditions. I would guess GM's Tech II and an experienced tech would figure it out. Geek tech sprinkled with great mechanical knowledge.................

Hopefully your dusting and polishing fixed it.

[todd8]

Fdryer,

The misfire did come back, but still does clear up when the engine is run at higher rpms for a short period. Say like when driving at cruising speeds for a short while.

Some others have commented that the Honda engines are very particular about their spark plugs. I had originally replaced the plugs with autolite iridium plugs, and they seemed to be OK. The confusing issue is the fact that the misfire started on the same day that I filled up with gas and it was the first really cold day since I have had the car. I had been getting gas from this station for a while, but it is not "Name Brand". I am not sure if it is gas related or not, but I added a bottle of techron and dry gas just in case. Since that fill-up, I have filled up again With Sunoco gas and things seemed better, but the misfire came back. The tank still did have 1/4 of the old gas, so I am not sure if this is still from the old gas.

In any case, I have ordered NGK spark plugs, as recommended by the owners manual and honda techs, which say either NGK or Denso.

I am hoping to not have to break into the timing again to check the CKP, but if that's what it comes to, I have the experience! I thought I cleaned everything up when doing the timing belt, but it's not to say I couldn't have missed something.

Someone else said their problem was fixed by replacing the intake manifold gasket and completing a valve adjustment. I guess I will try the easiest things first, and work my way through the others

Any other ideas?

[qwikz28]

Intake manifold gasket is an interesting suggestion, wouldn't you experience a vacuum leak if that gasket was bad?

I currently have some sort of platinum plug in my car, and will be swapping them for NGK Iridiums this winter. Valve adjustment will come soon as well. Those should be done anyway, so why not try and eliminate the choices from doing that? Sounds like a decent plan.

[jcob2]

Resurrecting the thread. I'm having identical issues. 2005 Vue Redline @ 118k mi. Owned since 45k mi. Changed timing belt and new spark plugs @ 105k this summer and no problems through the fall (did not adjust valve lash though). Now that we have hit below freezing temperatures in Chicago I am experiencing intermittent rough cold starts with P0300, P0301, P0303, P0304, P0305, P0306 codes (all misfire codes). The motor smooths out once you rev it and/or it warms up after driving a half mile.

I'm curious if you ever solved the issue and determined what the root cause was?

[BobbyP]

Honda uses Iridium spark plugs for a reason... When I used them in my SC the engine ran the smoothest. I also went past the 30k mile change interval with them.

Iridium plugs can properly fire a plug with the lowest voltage. Possibly the HV coil system on the Honda engine is engineered around the firing voltage of an Iridium plug.

[far2grumpy]

Originally Posted by jcob2

Resurrecting the thread. I'm having identical issues. 2005 Vue Redline @ 118k mi. Owned since 45k mi. Changed timing belt and new spark plugs @ 105k this summer and no problems through the fall (did not adjust valve lash though). Now that we have hit below freezing temperatures in Chicago I am experiencing intermittent rough cold starts with P0300, P0301, P0303, P0304, P0305, P0306 codes (all misfire codes). The motor smooths out once you rev it and/or it warms up after driving a half mile.

I'm curious if you ever solved the issue and determined what the root cause was?

Good question and I'd also like to know more about any resolution.

In your case - you could try something simple first - perhaps mix a bottle of Chevron Techron (Concentrate Plus) in your next tank of fuel.

Other additives might provide same results but this particular mix has worked (so far) in my daughters 07 Vue with 3.5. Walmart has for around 4.50 per 10 oz bottle.

I also asked her to abandon her normal filling station and try a different brand for a month or so.

I'm assuming you went with recommended spark plugs, and I doubt if all coil packs are acting-up, but you should make sure electrical system is providing full required voltages.

Other possibilities for for all cylinder misfire could be low fuel pressure, sticky PCV valve or sticky EGR valve.

I'm old school and used a vacuum gauge to verify lack of valve problems and that there are no exhaust problems.

[far2grumpy]

Originally Posted by jcob2

Now that we have hit below freezing temperatures in Chicago I am experiencing intermittent rough cold starts with P0300, P0301, P0303, P0304, P0305, P0306 codes (all misfire codes). The motor smooths out once you rev it and/or it warms up after driving a half mile.

A simple experiment for next cold engine start ... this only applies if the SES light is not lighted when you turn key OFF after last trip of day.

Turn key ON - but don't advance to START ... until all dash lights other than battery and SES have gone out. This ensures the fuel pump completes its two second rail pressurization run at each key ON.

The fuel system is supposed to maintain pressure in the "rail" to provide pressure for quick starts when needed. What can happen is the fuel pressure will bleed back into tank if the back-flow valve is starting to fail (lazy or dirty).

It makes sense to me that if you have a pressure leakage issue - and tend to insert key and immediately advance to START - there might not be enough fuel pressure to "feed" all the injectors with the desired amount of fuel.

This could result in several cylinders misfiring at a cold start due to fuel starvation.

By the way, it appears misfire codes will not set if engine coolant or outside air temperature is below 14°F, which sort of indicates the engine computer expects ragged starts when temps are really low.

[far2grumpy]

Originally Posted by jcob2

Resurrecting the thread. I'm having identical issues. 2005 Vue Redline @ 118k mi. Owned since 45k mi. Changed timing belt and new spark plugs @ 105k this summer and no problems through the fall (did not adjust valve lash though). Now that we have hit below freezing temperatures in Chicago I am experiencing intermittent rough cold starts with P0300, P0301, P0303, P0304, P0305, P0306 codes (all misfire codes). The motor smooths out once you rev it and/or it warms up after driving a half mile.

I'm curious if you ever solved the issue and determined what the root cause was?

See this thread for more multiple misfire information:

http://saturnfans3.saturnfans.com/~s...d.php?t=186932

[far2grumpy]

Originally Posted by jcob2

Resurrecting the thread. I'm having identical issues. 2005 Vue Redline @ 118k mi. Owned since 45k mi. Changed timing belt and new spark plugs @ 105k this summer and no problems through the fall (did not adjust valve lash though). Now that we have hit below freezing temperatures in Chicago I am experiencing intermittent rough cold starts with P0300, P0301, P0303, P0304, P0305, P0306 codes (all misfire codes). The motor smooths out once you rev it and/or it warms up after driving a half mile.

I'm curious if you ever solved the issue and determined what the root cause was?

I'm 95% confident my 3.5 multiple misfires were caused by a failing battery. But keep in mind - my check engine light (CEL) only came on at engine start - not once during a drive cycle.

The battery was over five years old and appeared to be normal in all aspects (lights, warm weather crank, etc.). However, I connected a voltmeter to find the voltage sagged to almost 8 volts when starter was first engaged.

I did same start voltage test on another 3.5 Vue and battery voltage dropped to 10.5 volts during crank. I moved the 10.5 battery to the problem Vue and it also cranked at 10.5.

I'm guessing that since the battery voltage dropped so low during crank it affected the ability of injectors and/or sparkplugs to fire multiple cylinders during the first milliseconds of crank cycle.

The Vue is on an uneventful day 3 with the new battery with no CEL. Our temperatures have been moderate for the last few days but I'm almost totally confident my root cause was a tired battery.

[armand71]

Keeping an eye on this thread. I'm having the same issues and watched the misfires add up on the OTC scan tool today. Hoping it's a gas issue as I have a newer battery and newer iridium plugs.

[bern]

Armand 71

Do this

Replace spark plugs with OEM plugs.

(Denso Iridium SKJ16DR-11 / GM 12582002 / Carquest 3422 )

Also adjust valves at the same time.
parts: upper plenum gaskets 3 pieces kit available (not lower intake),
valve cover gaskets.

clean throttle valve . clean EGR ports when plenum is off.