SaturnFans.com
saturnfans.com - classifieds - forums - webmail


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series Tech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-01-2007, 03:46 PM   #1
Mark2000
Member
Mark2000 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 66
Default EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

Hi all, I have a mysterious problem, getting conflicting information from garages about my 1994 SC1 SOHC Saturn, and I'm at a loss.

What started to happen, is the car became noisey upon cold startup. Then, as I drove it, it got a bit quieter. I figured it was the catalytic convertor, so I took it into two garages and they said the cat needed replacement, and gave me estimates.

At the same time as the noise started, I also noticed the SES light coming on intermittently. Now, at high RPMs and driving about 65 mph (110 KM/h) the SES light stays on for a few seconds, if not minutes, at a time. I pulled the codes, and got 26 and 32, likely indicating the EGR solenoid. I tried to replace the solenoid, but I can't get the bolt which holds it down, off, because its rusted. I then reset the codes, and drove 110 again to see if the SES light would come on, and it did. When I tried to pull the new codes out of the computer, nothing was coming up except 12-12-12. I remember reading somewhere, that this is because the SES needs to be on more than intermittently to register into the computer.

So, this morning, I took it to a third garage who gave me a good quote on the catalytic convertor on the phone, and they did an inspection in front of my eyes before they let me go, and told me it wasn't the catalytic convertor at all! They tested the exhaust system to see if there were any leaks - nothing! They rattled the pipe around to see if the cat had broken down...nothing!

Then, they pulled the throttle in the engine, and they feel that the extra noise was coming from the EGR valve area or the air intake area. I have always felt that the noise DID tend to come from the engine, rather than down below where the catalytic convertor is.

So, what is the problem? Is it possible it's not the cat at all, but in fact something to do with the EGR valve AND solenoid? Would a malfunctioning valve and/or solenoid cause a roar upon cold startup and cold acceleration? Would this cause the SES light to go on at high RPMs on the highway, but not at low, street speeds? And how do I know if it is the valve AND solenoid, OR just one or the other? Now that I lost the codes 26 and 32, I don't know. The 26 could be an old code from the past which wasn't reset, and maybe all I was REALLY seeing before is the 32. I can't get the codes to stick yet.

I am driving about 800 miles roundtrip for the long weekend, starting tomorrow, so I need to know if this is an EGR problem, if it is gonna damage my car or leave me with a breakdown, or if it is merely an efficiency issue. I'll fix it when I get back next week if that is the case ...

But if anyone has heard of these symptoms, please give me a clue!!! Thanks from Toronto, Cyyyyanada.
Mark2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 08-01-2007, 06:08 PM   #2
Uzzy
Master Member
Uzzy has a spectacular aura aboutUzzy has a spectacular aura about
 
Uzzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Windsor, Ontario Canada
Posts: 9,326
 

2002 SC1
2005 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

I can't imagine how and EGR problem would make the car louder. It could make is run rough. If the rough running makes it a bit louder, then I guess that's it. You need to get that EGR off and see if it is the problem, and if it's broken, or just very dirty.

But EGR problems are mostly efficiency issues. Your mileage might be lower and Al Gore might get mad at you, but the car should run ok. Unless the EGR breaks and sticks open like it did on my sister's '95. The car wouldn't stay running it was running so bad.

Try some penetrating fluid, or PB Blaster or WD-40 and let it soak before trying to get it off. Maybe try a braker bar, and make sure you only use 6-point metric sockets, (eh?) I'm pretty sure it's a 10mm. And also make sure to have a new gasket as well. The car can run fine with the EGR removed, and the vaccuum hose and EGR holes blocked off if that's what you have to do, but your SES will be on the whole time.
...
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
...
If your ECTS is not brass...your ass is grass.
...
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can hire Uzzy.
Uzzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2007, 05:31 PM   #3
Mark2000
Member
Mark2000 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 66
Default Motor Mount??

Brought the car in for further diagnosis. This shop says its not the catalytic convertor at all, but the engine mount.

Loud noise is heard at acceleration and also startup. Especially (but not only) when car is cold.

They say it is the engine mount and it is rattling and needs replacement?

I swore it sounded more "exhaust" like, but my cat DID pass my last emissions test, so it makes sense it might not be failing me yet.

Could this be it?


Thanks.
Mark2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2007, 05:54 PM   #4
Uzzy
Master Member
Uzzy has a spectacular aura aboutUzzy has a spectacular aura about
 
Uzzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Windsor, Ontario Canada
Posts: 9,326
 

2002 SC1
2005 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: Motor Mount??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark2000 View Post
Brought the car in for further diagnosis. This shop says its not the catalytic convertor at all, but the engine mount.

Loud noise is heard at acceleration and also startup. Especially (but not only) when car is cold.

They say it is the engine mount and it is rattling and needs replacement?

I swore it sounded more "exhaust" like, but my cat DID pass my last emissions test, so it makes sense it might not be failing me yet.

Could this be it?


Thanks.
Yes, it could. If you have the car, you can check it yourself. Look for the mount on the passenger side of the engine at the top, it is the U-shaped piece of metal with the rubber under it. If you can stick your pinky finger in past your nail, it's too worn (that's just a rough measurement. Make sure you check it with the engine off.) If it's bad enough it can make your engine move enough to bang stuff around.
...
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
...
If your ECTS is not brass...your ass is grass.
...
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can hire Uzzy.
Uzzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2007, 08:02 PM   #5
Mark2000
Member
Mark2000 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 66
Default Re: Motor Mount??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uzzy View Post
Yes, it could. If you have the car, you can check it yourself. Look for the mount on the passenger side of the engine at the top, it is the U-shaped piece of metal with the rubber under it. If you can stick your pinky finger in past your nail, it's too worn (that's just a rough measurement. Make sure you check it with the engine off.) If it's bad enough it can make your engine move enough to bang stuff around.
Ya, bits of the rubber have worn off and fallen out.

My concern is, I need to pass my emissions test, and I want to get whatever repairs done before I take the test, so I don't have to retake it. Two shops have claimed this problem to be the catalytic convertor, and this is the first time I have heard it could be the mount.

The other two times, I was getting a rough estimate, but this time, I actually paid for the diagnosis which led to them saying it was the mount.

I just don't want to get the mount fixed, only to find out later that it is the cat.

But yeah, it makes a hell of a sound, and I have always felt that the sound DOES tend to come from the front of the car, not the undercarriage... It just baffles me that a bad mount could lead to such major vibrations and shocks that it could cause this noise, and PLUS, when I apply the gas and look at the mount area, I don't see the vibration that wildly. GRR. I don't know what route to go.
Mark2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2007, 08:45 PM   #6
Uzzy
Master Member
Uzzy has a spectacular aura aboutUzzy has a spectacular aura about
 
Uzzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Windsor, Ontario Canada
Posts: 9,326
 

2002 SC1
2005 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: Motor Mount??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark2000 View Post
Ya, bits of the rubber have worn off and fallen out.

My concern is, I need to pass my emissions test, and I want to get whatever repairs done before I take the test, so I don't have to retake it. Two shops have claimed this problem to be the catalytic convertor, and this is the first time I have heard it could be the mount.

The other two times, I was getting a rough estimate, but this time, I actually paid for the diagnosis which led to them saying it was the mount.

I just don't want to get the mount fixed, only to find out later that it is the cat.

But yeah, it makes a hell of a sound, and I have always felt that the sound DOES tend to come from the front of the car, not the undercarriage... It just baffles me that a bad mount could lead to such major vibrations and shocks that it could cause this noise, and PLUS, when I apply the gas and look at the mount area, I don't see the vibration that wildly. GRR. I don't know what route to go.
DO THE MOUNT!

You need it anyways. Don't wait to the last minute to get your e-test, either you can get it a few weeks early (if you still have that much time.) You pay the full amount the first time (~$32, last time I had one that I remember), if it fails then (and I doubt it) you can get the cat fixed, or whatever the problem is and then you only pay half the second time, that's the law. It's also half the 3rd time and then full price again the 4th time (I had Plymouth Horizon that just didn't wanna pass severl years ago ). From the sounds of it, you definately need the mount no matter what!

P.S. The mount from the dealership is twice as much money as from a parts store BUT it is at least twice as long lasting, so if you plan on keeping the car for more than a year or two, get the OE mount from the dealer.

P.P.S. Do you need any parts? My buddy just picked up a '96 SC1 parts car. He's not too keen on shipping stuff and I noticed you're in Toronto, which isan't too far, if there's anything you might need that is worthe the drive. And no a used engine mount is not a good idea (unless it's new, I'll find out) but I doubt you wanna drive 4 hrs to get it. He's also a Saturn Tech BTW.
...
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
...
If your ECTS is not brass...your ass is grass.
...
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can hire Uzzy.
Uzzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2007, 08:52 PM   #7
Mark2000
Member
Mark2000 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 66
Dizzy Re: EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

I need the mount?? Like, there will be serious problems if I don't get it, problems with the engine or the car? It's not just an aesthetic issue...?

Ya, I read about the dealer mount being better quality and I mentioned it to the garage. They said they would have to give me a surcharge to go with external parts because they need to make money on retail markup. However, they're only charging me half-hour a labour after the diagnosis, $43.50. The new aftermarket part's about $90. If the aftermarket part stops the rattling, I'll probably just spring for it 'coz the original one lasted y'all's'bout 13 years, aye?

Thanks!
Mark2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2007, 08:58 PM   #8
Uzzy
Master Member
Uzzy has a spectacular aura aboutUzzy has a spectacular aura about
 
Uzzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Windsor, Ontario Canada
Posts: 9,326
 

2002 SC1
2005 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark2000 View Post
I need the mount?? Like, there will be serious problems if I don't get it, problems with the engine or the car? It's not just an aesthetic issue...?

Ya, I read about the dealer mount being better quality and I mentioned it to the garage. They said they would have to give me a surcharge to go with external parts because they need to make money on retail markup. However, they're only charging me half-hour a labour after the diagnosis, $43.50. The new aftermarket part's about $90. If the aftermarket part stops the rattling, I'll probably just spring for it 'coz the original one lasted y'all's'bout 13 years, aye?

Thanks!
Yes, you need the mount, it can cause damage after it gets too worn. Most people replace it long before then, however. Yours didn't last 13 years, it probably died several years ago, you just didn't notice. Do the mount for sure, and it will probably be what the problem was all along.
...
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
...
If your ECTS is not brass...your ass is grass.
...
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can hire Uzzy.
Uzzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2007, 09:14 AM   #9
Mark2000
Member
Mark2000 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 66
Default Re: EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

Thanks a lot Uzzy. I guess the Mount it is then. As for your friend's parts...I don't know if I need any and if they'd fit my car anyway, since I have a 94. I might be in need of a cat soon, but! Would that fit mine, and -- is it working?

To tell you the truth, i have just about replaced everything on this thing now: The motor and tranny, radiator, new muffler and rear brakes, water pump, alternator (a couple of times). In fact, when I bring it in, mechanics marvel at how well it runs...
Mark2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2007, 11:31 AM   #10
d16tr
Member
d16tr is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SC
Posts: 110

1995 SW2
Default Re: EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

A quick question,

I have 222K on my 95 SW2 so after I read this thread I am thinking I too may need to change the engine mount, to reduce the vibrating and noise. I checked RockAuto and they don't have anything like "engine mount", what term should I use in the search?
d16tr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2007, 11:38 AM   #11
BarnOwl
Super Member
BarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really nice
 
BarnOwl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hickory, NC
Posts: 10,029
 

2000 SW2
1998 SL2
Default Re: EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

You want the upper motor mount. However, just about everyone on here will tell you to go OEM. That means dealer or www.saturnparts.com or .net. If you must go aftermarket, let me suggest going to Advance and getting the one by Pioneer. Most parts stores sell the mount made by Anchor and it's known not to last very long. The jury's still out on the Pioneers. I've had them in both my cars for about 16 months and they seem fine so far but, that's far from the time an OEM mount would last. So, I can't say it's better or even as good yet.
...
There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.
BarnOwl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2007, 11:57 AM   #12
d16tr
Member
d16tr is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SC
Posts: 110

1995 SW2
Default Re: EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

Thanks BarnOwl, by the way I just realized we're neighbors. I live in Myrtle Beach.
d16tr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2007, 12:18 PM   #13
brettkramer
Member
brettkramer is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 64
 

1994 SW1
Default Re: EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

I'm going to throw in my 2 cents regarding motor mounts. I have 168,000 miles on my 1994 SW1 SOHC. In that time I would guess that I've replaced (4) upper motor mounts. The only bad experience I've had is when I bought a new upper motor mount from a distributor off of EBAY, sure I saved a lot of money, but it had absolutely no effect on reducing my engine vibration issues. I immediately replaced the mount with a genuine dealer part that I had ordered from Saturnparts.com and the dealer part had the desired effect of eliminating the vibrations. Now a few thousand miles later, my vibrations are back, ( for those of you who don't understand how important motor mounts are, for example when you put your hands on your steering wheel, your car should be as smooth as silk and you should feel no vibrations at all), I've never changed the lower motor mount or the curved dogbone transmission mount, so I would imagine it's time to do that. I was also told by the dealer that when you replace the upper mount, you should always replace the three double threaded bolts, because over time they can stretch and develop cracks. For me, it's going to be dealer mounts from now on. My question for the rest of you is: when have you replaced the other two lower mounts and did it have the desired effect of eliminating those annoying vibrations? Oh, I wanted to also add that although my bad upper motor mount caused a lot of annoying engine vibrations that transmit though the steering wheel, I never experienced any of the additional noise that other folks here are talking about.
...
1994 SW1 1.9L SOHC Auto Trans
Original Owner, 178,000 miles

Last edited by brettkramer; 08-21-2007 at 12:24 PM.
brettkramer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2007, 01:01 PM   #14
BarnOwl
Super Member
BarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really nice
 
BarnOwl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hickory, NC
Posts: 10,029
 

2000 SW2
1998 SL2
Default Re: EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

I've never replaced the dogbones. I have replaced the transmission mount. On my '96 I replaced the upper mount and things got better but, not great. So, I replaced the transmssion mount and it really helped. AFAIK the dogbones aren't going to have that much effect. I could be wrong though.
...
There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.
BarnOwl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2007, 01:09 PM   #15
Mark2000
Member
Mark2000 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 66
Default Re: EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

Well, the dealer mount was $108 CDN and the tech took a look at my car in the parking lot and suggested I do it myself as he seemed to think I was capable. But I decided to go back to the garage where they had the aftermarket part and get it done there for $130 instead. The $20 bucks difference is not worth my time.

I just hope the mount they use is as good in reducing the vibrations as the dealer mount...

I told them also, to please screw the other mounts on tighter. I know some of the bolts on the other mounts are getting loose after all the vibrations because I was able to turn them a bolt quite easily on one of them with a wrench. Could someone tell me where to locate the other mounts to tighten them, because I doubt they will remember to do it. I know there's a photo of them here somewhere.

Also, the Saturn Tech looked at my EGR in the parking lot, determined it was still working, and told me to go ahead and replace the solenoid, which is what my threads originally were about. It worked. Replaced the solenoid, so easy, and no more SES light. Drives a bit smoother too.

Thanks all. Will see how the new motor mount performs later today and post it.
Mark2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2007, 05:54 PM   #16
Uzzy
Master Member
Uzzy has a spectacular aura aboutUzzy has a spectacular aura about
 
Uzzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Windsor, Ontario Canada
Posts: 9,326
 

2002 SC1
2005 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark2000 View Post
As for your friend's parts...I don't know if I need any and if they'd fit my car anyway, since I have a 94.
Same body. Interiors are different, engine has some differences. I haven't seen the car myself yet, so I don't know what's good on it. The drivetrain is good, I know that much. And the wheels and tires, but they are sold already.

Anyhoo, I'm glad to hear your car is a-ok now. Hopefully it flies right though the damn e-test.
...
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
...
If your ECTS is not brass...your ass is grass.
...
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can hire Uzzy.
Uzzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2007, 06:08 PM   #17
Mark2000
Member
Mark2000 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 66
Default Re: EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

Same body as the 94 SC1? Really?

Ask him what colour, and if the lower front bumper is the charcoal coloured version or the painted version.

My front bumpers were in a fender bender.
Mark2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2007, 06:10 PM   #18
Uzzy
Master Member
Uzzy has a spectacular aura aboutUzzy has a spectacular aura about
 
Uzzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Windsor, Ontario Canada
Posts: 9,326
 

2002 SC1
2005 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark2000 View Post
Same body as the 94 SC1? Really?

Ask him what colour, and if the lower front bumper is the charcoal coloured version or the painted version.

My front bumpers were in a fender bender.
The coupes were not changed over until 1997. You have a coupe, right? You said SC1. The coupes also only had painted bumpers. I'll let you know.
...
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
...
If your ECTS is not brass...your ass is grass.
...
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can hire Uzzy.
Uzzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2007, 06:25 PM   #19
Mark2000
Member
Mark2000 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 66
Default Re: EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

Oh, so the four door ones were the only ones with the non-painted lower bumper? Too bad, I don't mind that look at all. Let me know. I have an aquamarine colour Saturn.
Mark2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2007, 06:38 PM   #20
Uzzy
Master Member
Uzzy has a spectacular aura aboutUzzy has a spectacular aura about
 
Uzzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Windsor, Ontario Canada
Posts: 9,326
 

2002 SC1
2005 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: EGR problem ?! ... 1994 SC1 SOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark2000 View Post
Oh, so the four door ones were the only ones with the non-painted lower bumper? Too bad, I don't mind that look at all. Let me know. I have an aquamarine colour Saturn.
Oh you do have a coupe? Well he did say it was green. If it's the right green I'll get you pics of the front clip and stuff. He should have it by the weekend sometime.

EDIT: It's a dark green, like a Humter Green, I guess you could say, so the colour is wrong.
...
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
...
If your ECTS is not brass...your ass is grass.
...
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can hire Uzzy.
Uzzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help please - electrical/stalling problem SES code 19 on 95 SC1 SOHC Manual gumby6 S-Series General 4 12-07-2009 06:42 PM
Do newer SOHC heads have the same problem with cracking as the 1994-1999 SOHC heads? BRIAN41920 S-Series Tech 8 10-22-2009 02:53 PM
96 sohc into 2000 sc1 air pump problem satstang S-Series Tech 0 10-18-2008 08:44 PM
1994 Saturn SC1 EGR valve malfunction trouble code Dingo Warrior S-Series Tech 2 02-26-2006 02:31 PM
Overheating Problem 1994 SC1 in2nascar S-Series Tech 20 05-22-2004 06:46 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:22 AM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.