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Old 06-03-2013, 08:42 PM   #1
Mitcheky
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2003 VUE 3.0L
Default Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

My wife was traveling down the road and the vue started misfiring, no power, and RPM's were racing up to 5-7 k.

Had it put on a code scanner and got a random misfire, and a cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

Did some research on here for others with the same issue. So far I have replaced the spark plugs, coil pack, lower intake gasket, and I have the vacuum chamber springs installed.

After all that it is still missing and idling rough.

Not sure what else to do other than replace the fuel filter/pump as she likes to run the gas down super low.
I priced out a fuel pump and Autozone wants 250 bucks.

Side note: whenever we put gas in the car, it starts up rough for about 10 seconds then smooths out. usually we have to hit the gas after its started to smooth it out. not sure if that could be relevant to the issue

Any help appreciated.

My car is a 2003 Saturn Vue 3.0 front wheel drive.
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:03 PM   #2
vasy
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2007 VUE Green Line
Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

is it auto vti?
Check your throttle body and fuel pressure.
If your pressure is ok, pump should be good.
Check for vacuum and gasket leaks. Misfire can be caused by air leaks into the system.
What is the exact code computer throws at you?
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:09 PM   #3
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

It's is a auto.

Not sure of the code numbers. There is a Walmart across the street. That was as far as I could get it safely. They just said it was a random misfire. And a misfire on cylinders 2,4,6.
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:33 PM   #4
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2007 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitcheky View Post
It's is a auto.

Not sure of the code numbers. There is a Walmart across the street. That was as far as I could get it safely. They just said it was a random misfire. And a misfire on cylinders 2,4,6.
Those cylinders are all on engine bank 2 - and are served by the same ignition control module. I think I'd swap that critter first.
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Old 06-04-2013, 01:48 AM   #5
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitcheky View Post
It's is a auto.

Not sure of the code numbers. There is a Walmart across the street. That was as far as I could get it safely. They just said it was a random misfire. And a misfire on cylinders 2,4,6.
As grumpy said, a computer can be bad, but get yourself a scanner as hunting blind is a bit hard. Would be cheaper to take it to a dealer and have it fixed. Random parts replacement is a waste.

You can get cheap code scanners on ebay for $20-$40
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:02 AM   #6
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasy View Post
As grumpy said, a computer can be bad, but get yourself a scanner as hunting blind is a bit hard. Would be cheaper to take it to a dealer and have it fixed. Random parts replacement is a waste.

You can get cheap code scanners on ebay for $20-$40
I guess I read between the lines - I wasn't sure what "random misfire" had to do with misfires on cylinder 2 (P0302), 4 (P0304) and 6 (P0306) but seeing those numbers was a strong clue of an even bank (2) ICM issue.

The strange thing is the ignition control module (ICM) for even cylinders (bank 2 - nearest radiator) apparently can't be swapped with the odd cylinders (bank 1 - nearest windshield) to troubleshoot.

RockAuto.com has Delphi ICM's for bank 2 for $59 - plus shipping - but OP might be able to locate a reasonably priced one nearby to save time.
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Old 06-04-2013, 03:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

I pulled a coil off a catera in the salvage yard for 25 bucks. maybe I got another bad one. Autozone here is Lansing, MI wants 100 bucks for a new one. Is there any way to test the coil packs? Autozone and Oreily's cannot test them here.
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Old 06-04-2013, 06:30 PM   #8
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by far2grumpy View Post
Those cylinders are all on engine bank 2 - and are served by the same ignition control module. I think I'd swap that critter first.
Is the control module the same as the coil packs? some websites are showing the coil packs when searching for ignition control module, and others show a different component.

Autozone shows the ignition control module under Part Number: RB200 for $563, and the ignition coils for $95. Oreilly shows the same item that autozone lists as a ignition coil but they call it a ignition control module?


I am hoping that they are two different parts as maybe this will be the key to getting back on the road.
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:00 PM   #9
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

Try using http://www.rockauto.com as their website tends to have correct pictures. Even with the pictures, they list Vue 3.0L V6 ignition system parts as both ignition control module and ignition coil. L300 3.0L V6 engines are the same in your Vue and these parts are called ignition coil packs in service manuals - three integrated ignition coils epoxied into one module. Unfortunately, both coil packs cannot be interchanged. () If one coil fails, the entire coil pack is replaced. This was revised on later Vue models to allow individual coil replacement....................

Noticed the lower prices? Shop carefully. Astra members have a choice of an ignition part costing several hundred dollars or much less when buying from Hong Kong for a similar aftermarket part. No one has found fault with the HK part.

I do not know if the coils are the problem. Junk yard parts can be a good source for the lowest cost.
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:07 PM   #10
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitcheky View Post
Is the control module the same as the coil packs? some websites are showing the coil packs when searching for ignition control module, and others show a different component.

Autozone shows the ignition control module under Part Number: RB200 for $563, and the ignition coils for $95. Oreilly shows the same item that autozone lists as a ignition coil but they call it a ignition control module?


I am hoping that they are two different parts as maybe this will be the key to getting back on the road.
You are correct about confusing terminology for coil pack or ICM. RockAuto does same thing - two different names - but illustrates same device.

I suspect the quote you got for $563 is for an ECM (engine control module).

To be honest I don't have a 3.0 so lets hope an actual owner gives us a learned opinion.

See post # 2 of this thread for ICM troubleshooting and test (rules won't let me post again):

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=152842
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:39 PM   #11
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

So today i put another ignition coil in and a new crankshaft position sensor. It ran ok for about 30 seconds then the ses started flashing again and the engine started to miss again. I'm not sure what else to do to this thing. Could it be the ecm? Injectors? At this point its getting a little frustrating that nothing has fixed the issue. everything that has been done to this point is new coils, new plugs, checked fuel filter, new crankshaft position sensor, new intake gasket. could it be that i need to replace the other ingition coil on 1,3,5? i will have updated codes tomorrow unless i find a cheap one for sale tonight.
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:09 PM   #12
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

I got a scanner tonight. the codes are still the same as a few days ago.

P0300
P0302
P0304
P0306
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:53 PM   #13
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitcheky View Post
I got a scanner tonight. the codes are still the same as a few days ago.

P0300
P0302
P0304
P0306
You've pretty well eliminated the ignition system - to my way of thinking.

I've attached a diagram for the fuel injector system. I don't see a single point failure item that'd affect just even cylinders.

My 3.5 has under-hood fuel plumbing where the tank supply is split to serve the front and rear cylinders.

Could you have a restricted line for the front bank?

Perhaps a 3.0 owner could verify that engine has similar fuel piping.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:14 PM   #14
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

Mileage? Possible clogged pre-cat?

A fuel pressure gauge (borrowed from a local Autozone?) can help if fuel issues are causing this problem. A spark test can be done with both ignition coil packs and spark plugs to verify actual spark. A clogged pre-cat may be tested by removing the O2 sensor on the exhaust manifold upstream of the pre-cat and seeing if the engine runs any better. The noise will be loud.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:17 AM   #15
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

It certainly could be a obstructed bank 2 exhaust system - especially if the misfire grows worse as engine runs longer.

If engine runs smoothly for several seconds after cold start and then begins immediate misfire - try disconnecting the pre-cat HO2S sensor (sensor screwed into top of cat - don't remove sensor - but follow harness to connector and unplug).

This should cause ECM to run the internal open-loop program - and if engine runs smoothly its a good indication the sensor is sending faulty fuel information to ECM.

Sensors have a couple of dozen faults codes of their on but some have caused evil running without setting a distinctive code.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:53 AM   #16
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

I will try unplugging the o2 sensor when I get home this afternoon. Thank you everyone for your help so far.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:09 PM   #17
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

I had a similar problem, it turned out to be a burnt exhaust in cylinder 4. Did you do a compression test? If the compression is low a leak down test will give you an idea where you're losing pressure.

BTW: The Right Bank, by the firewall are cylinders 1,2,3 The Left bank, by the radiator are 4,5,6.
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Old 06-06-2013, 05:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

How many miles are on this vehicle? Has the timing belt been changed if mileage is over 100,000 miles? You could have a restricted cat on that bank as already mentioned, or a fuel flow issue to that bank. If it has high mileage on the original timing belt, I'm wondering if maybe the cam timing is off a little for that bank.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

just did a compression test.

Cylinder 1: 180psi Jumped right up
Cylinder 2: 60psi Gradual increase
Cylinder 3: 100psi faster than gradual increase
Cylinder 4: 60psi Gradual increase
Cylinder 5: 60psi Gradual increase
Cylinder 6: 60psi Gradual increase

The engine has about 200,000 highway miles on it.

We have been putting off the timing belt replacement. but looks like we will have to do it now. priced it out to about 400 bucks on rockauto.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:23 PM   #20
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Default Re: Random Misfire, and cylinders 2,4,6 misfire.

That seems rather low at 60.
Time for a new engine it looks like.
I checked GM service manual for your car and specification say 190 psi is normal, 180 is "minimum service limit"
So unless you have issues with the gauge, it looks like a total rebuild or find an engine on the junk yard and swap.
At least looks like you found a problem, one one side at least two cylinders are still holding where on the other it is a total failure.

My friend just had same on his Suzuki, took him one month and some patience but he managed to do a full rebuild in his tiny garage, mostly working outside, for about $1000 in parts and tools cost alone.

Last edited by vasy; 06-06-2013 at 09:28 PM.
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