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Old 04-25-2009, 01:54 AM   #1
medwards22
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1991 SC
Default 91 sc won't stay running

Hello. I have a 91 Saturn sc that will start but after it is started it will sputter and then die. I have replaced the erg valve. New o2 sensor. Checked the crankshaft sensor and still nothing. I checked for codes and i got 2, on is 41 witch is a cam sensor but this car don't have a cam sensor. The other is 26 witch is a Quad-Driver module or Quad-driver No. 1 error. Not sure what that means. I also checked to see if the catalytic converter was bad and its not. if you need any more info just let me know. Thanks
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Old 04-25-2009, 12:15 PM   #2
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

Welcome to the Forums!

It will help if you will list your car in your profile along with your location. That way everyone will not have to go back to the first post to see what is being discussed.

You are getting a code 41 and 26. Go here http://saturnwiki.org/index.php/Main_Page and scroll down to teh OBD-1 engine codes and then select the code you are receiving. For the 26 try and eliminate the easy stuff first, light bulbs is the big one.

The code 41 is going to take a bit more work. It is a problem with teh EST circuit and is most likely an open circuit at teh plug/connector . Dirty connection if you are lucky. So, get a can of CRC Electronics Cleaner and spray out both the plugs and sockets.

To clear the codes so you can see if you are making progress, pull the PCM-B fuse located in the under hood fuse box for 5 minutes with the key off.

Ignition system info is attached. The code is related to the E.S.T. line only.
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Old 04-25-2009, 08:15 PM   #3
medwards22
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

Sorry About that. Profile is updated. i will check all that stuff and get back with you.
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Old 04-25-2009, 08:36 PM   #4
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

Post back after you investigate a bit. Also, removing the entire ignition module and cleaning it up including brushing up under the bolt heads can do wonders on the early units. they are sensitive to a lack of external ground. And, check the battery voltage after it has sat overnight, if its less than 12.6vDC that could also be a contributor.

Profile helps.
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:03 PM   #5
medwards22
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

Ok took the coil pack and module off and cleaned real good. checked the spark plugs and 3 of the 4 look burnt, really black and some build up on them. The other one looks like a light to medium brown no build up. I also read some where else that the could act up like that if the ECTS is bad or cracked so i pulled it out and the ceramic end is cracked. I'm going to replace it but i wanted to see if anyone else had anymore input as well. Thanks
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:17 PM   #6
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

That's not a ceramic end but plain plastic that caused your black plugs, from excess fuel fed most of the time after the coolant sensor broke. It created a rich running condition and the sooner the coolant sensor is replaced with the brass one the better the engine will run.
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:12 PM   #7
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

When I bought the 91 SC from California that I was going to restore...the previous owner had told me that it ran "Fair"...it needed a little bit of work.

On the way home from getting the registration done, the car did the same that you are writing about. Wouldn't start at all. I changed the plugs, wires, etc.

I wound up selling the car to my Saturn Mechanic, who used the trans in his brother inlaw's 92 SC. Turns out that the Ignition Module was bad, and that was the reason why the car wouldn't start, or stay running.

As FDryer mentions, it is a good investment to longevity to replace the ECTS and get some new plugs and wires in there, now that you have cleaned out your Ignition and whatnot.

Good luck.
...
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94SL2 260K Miles
1/15

97SW2 266K Miles
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:52 PM   #8
medwards22
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

Well i got the new ects put in. Still having the same problem. I pulled the pcm-b fuse and still getting the same codes. I'm going to check to se if i have a vacuum leak again just to make sure. I was thinking that maybe it got a bad erg valve. I didn't put it on i just bought the car a week ago and the guy told me he put a new one on it and it does look new but i was thinking that it is a faulty one. Any thoughts. I bought the car thinking that it was the catalytic converter so i was getting the car at a real good price. The guy i bought it off of said it might be the fuel filter or fuel pump. Not so sure about the fuel pump but maybe the filter. Any way thanks for the posts or any other help you may be able to offer.


P.S. Is there a way to test the ignition module as 2NDSOUT mentioned.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

The Code 26 is Quad Driver Output Fault:

Coorelates to the following:

EGR Solenoid
EVAP Canister Purge Solenoid
Coolant Fan Relay
A/C Relay

From the FSM:

With Key in Ignition, Key ON; Engine OFF...note the telltale light and SES light.

Do lights come on and telltale lights go off?
If NO: Check circuits for Voltage (Fuses)...short to ground
If YES: Ground the ALDL (A and B Terminal with Paper Clip). Does Coolant Fan Relay come on?

If NO: Check circuits for Voltage(Fuses), short to ground.
If YES: Remove Grounding Jumper and turn on A/C.

Does A/C Clutch Operate?
If NO: Check Circuits for Voltage (Fuses) short to ground

If YES: Does Speedomemter Operate?

If NO: Check Circuits for Voltage Fuses short to ground.

If YES: Disconnect PCM and Ground Circuit 456.

Does Shift to D2 or Trac Control light up on dash?

If NO: Check Circuit for Fuse/Voltage short to ground
If YES: Measure voltage at Circuit 428 and 435 in PCM harness connector.

This should get you started. Did you have an EGR code with the 26? or Just the 41?

Try disconnecting the PCM fuse and see if this resets...along with following the above...this is the schematic directly from the FSM.
...
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94SL2 HCE, "Pearl"

99 SL

94SL2 260K Miles
1/15

97SW2 266K Miles
2/15

Always
94SC1 340,501 Miles
Org. Engine/Auto Trans
2/97-10/08
Gone 3/12

92SL1
05VUE
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:37 AM   #10
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

The 26 is as was stated above. The 41 is a problem. Most of the parts stores have an ignition module tester. Call the store and ask them if they have the adapters to test the 91 module. Each coil should read 8k ohms between the secondary towers. Just take the ICM and not the coils to the parts store.

Did you check the battery? The car will not run with low battery voltage.
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:53 AM   #11
medwards22
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

I will call the auto parts store and find out about the tester and have it tested if i can. 2NDSOUT a couple of things. Does FSM stand for factory service manual and i'm not sure what you mean by short to ground. Is it shorting out or is it grounded to cause the short or something else. Also i don't have any books on this car so i'm not sure where Circuits you are talking about are. Those are the only 2 codes i get. I even pulled the PCM-B fuse to reset the codes still get same codes. Thanks
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Old 04-28-2009, 01:04 AM   #12
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

Its almost impossible to follow those fault trees. FSM = Factory Service Manual

For the code 26 check the following.
When you first turn the key on the dash lights should all light up and then go out. Are any missing/not lighting up? Be sure that the Upshift(manual) or Shift to D2(auto) lights. Coolant Hot light, and SES light.

If you turn on the A/C does it work and does the fan come on?

Does the speedometer work?

There are a couple more but lets work through the easy ones first.

I missed one. Does the automatic seat belt work?

Last edited by OldNuc; 04-28-2009 at 01:11 AM.
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Old 04-28-2009, 07:57 AM   #13
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse you.

FSM=Factory Service Manual

The short to ground, means simply if there is a short in the circuit.


Follow oldnuc's plan...that will help you out in finding out your issue.
...
Bryan

94SL2 HCE, "Pearl"

99 SL

94SL2 260K Miles
1/15

97SW2 266K Miles
2/15

Always
94SC1 340,501 Miles
Org. Engine/Auto Trans
2/97-10/08
Gone 3/12

92SL1
05VUE
91SC
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

Ok checked the lights. The ones that don't come on are the shift to d2 there is an up arrow that don't light up then anti lock light and the lap belt light. I can't keep the car running long enough to check the speedometer, same with a/c.
I called O'Reilly Auto Parts and they can test the ignition module for me. They the only ones in town that can. The battery is fine.

Is there an EGR valve and a EGR Solenoid or are they the same thing.
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:25 PM   #15
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

On all Saturns there is an EGR Valve AND an EGR Solenoid.

The EGR Solenoid is the electrical part that helps control the electrical flow to the valve itself.

On your 91 SC, you will see a mushroom looking canister that is mounted on the driver's side of the engine. This is the EGR Valve. It is vacuum operated. Replacing it is relatively easy to do, as the valve itself is held in with (2) 10 MM bolts. The easiest way to get the bolts off for the EGR valve is to use a box wrench, as you can't get a socket in there to get to the bolts.

If the D2 light is not coming on...the lamp may be burned out. It is going to be a #74 lamp (very small) that you will need to replace.

Do your seatbelts work as well?
...
Bryan

94SL2 HCE, "Pearl"

99 SL

94SL2 260K Miles
1/15

97SW2 266K Miles
2/15

Always
94SC1 340,501 Miles
Org. Engine/Auto Trans
2/97-10/08
Gone 3/12

92SL1
05VUE
91SC
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:38 PM   #16
medwards22
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

They work but i think the drivers side is off track or something. You can hear it moving but it don't move. Its got a newERG Valve was jst wondering if they were the same, now i know. Thanks. So could the EGR Solenoid be bad.
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:54 PM   #17
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

The light bulb that does not light will set the code. The belts are OK as you are getting the signal. The computer does not know if they work or not, its only looking for a signal to the belts.

There is no ERG valve. Its an EGR valve and an EGR solenoid, and they are 2 separate parts. The solenoid is electrically operated to switch manifold vacuum to the EGR valve.

On the drawing here: http://saturnwiki.org/index.php/26_Q...r_Output_Fault It shows you all of the lights and relays that have to function to NOT get the code. The ABS and Belt light will not do it.

Get the ICM tested and lets get the car to run long enough to deal with the rest of this.

The A/C and FAN relay will set the code also. Did you get a chance to test them? You can turn ther key to RUN and not start and turn on the AC and the fan should start
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Old 04-29-2009, 06:03 AM   #18
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2NDSOUT View Post
On all Saturns there is an EGR Valve AND an EGR Solenoid.
I'm pretty sure you know this but, '96 and up do not have an EGR solenoid. The '95 has an actuator doodad for the EGR valve and I can never remember the proper name for it but, it isn't solenoid. I'm not sure about the CA emission '94s with the linear EGR valve adapter.
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Old 04-29-2009, 08:05 AM   #19
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarnOwl View Post
I'm pretty sure you know this but, '96 and up do not have an EGR solenoid. The '95 has an actuator doodad for the EGR valve and I can never remember the proper name for it but, it isn't solenoid. I'm not sure about the CA emission '94s with the linear EGR valve adapter.
I probably should have clarified; that all first gen Saturns have the EGR valve/EGR Solenoid...that's what I meant....
...
Bryan

94SL2 HCE, "Pearl"

99 SL

94SL2 260K Miles
1/15

97SW2 266K Miles
2/15

Always
94SC1 340,501 Miles
Org. Engine/Auto Trans
2/97-10/08
Gone 3/12

92SL1
05VUE
91SC
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:04 PM   #20
medwards22
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Default Re: 91 sc won't stay running

Ok the ignition module is fine.still having the same problem as before. It will start but then shut right off. When i push on the gas to keep it running it bogs out and dies. This car is driving me nuts.
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