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Old 04-22-2021, 04:25 PM   #181
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Checkered Flag Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

08.B (My Camshaft and Crankshaft Seal Kit) Gallery:
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File Type: jpg 6_20210422_123222.jpg (63.7 KB, 6 views)
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Old 04-22-2021, 06:43 PM   #182
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

I decided to take some time and prep my drive belt accessory pieces that I had to remove to get to the timing belt.

The harmonic balancer cleaned up very nicely! As did the covers!

Gallery Part A:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_20210422_141317.jpg (148.3 KB, 4 views)
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Old 04-22-2021, 06:44 PM   #183
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Gallery Part B:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 6_20210422_141402.jpg (113.3 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 7_20210422_141428.jpg (142.9 KB, 2 views)
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Old 04-22-2021, 06:45 PM   #184
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Gallery Part C:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 11_20210422_151830.jpg (150.8 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 12_20210422_151839.jpg (143.7 KB, 4 views)
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Old 04-22-2021, 06:46 PM   #185
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Gallery Part D:
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File Type: jpg 16_20210422_151904.jpg (149.9 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 17_20210422_151908.jpg (129.3 KB, 4 views)
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File Type: jpg 19_20210422_151934.jpg (93.7 KB, 4 views)
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Old 04-22-2021, 08:17 PM   #186
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Your 4 of 4 photo of the new timing belt shows a pair of double lines. One of them is TDC and one is for a different vehicle. You'll need to determine which is correct. Really take your time aligning the belt to TDC, it must be dead spot on for everything to work right. And, be sure to lock it into position with the plastic timing kit wedge at a position of 9AM. You could call it 9 PM it is the same spot!

I still say, forget the crank seal repair. In order to do that repair, the entire engine will be out of time. I would leave that repair go undone. Just do the cam seals and then retime the cams as I explained. The manual is quite interesting. I see the 60 degree business, but I think you are taken it literally and that is not what it means exactly. I can't explain.
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Old 04-22-2021, 08:25 PM   #187
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonKastning View Post
Some FSM input for this thread! (Found the Kent Moore tool diagram and decided it would be best to snap this whole process according to GM or U.S. Congress [can't quite tell]).

01.A (Timing Belt Repair) Gallery:
The 60 degree business is to ensure the idlers are set at the farthest distances from their bolt. This has nothing to do with timing. It is to verify the idlers are applying the proper pressure on the belt and this must only happen at 60 degree before DTC. What ever it is, it is not a timing thing.

If you could actually see the engine running and the belt exposed... the tensioner are flipping and flopping back and forth like a crazy person and the belt looks to be floating over the points of contact. It is truly amazing how someone figured this sheet out!
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Old 04-22-2021, 08:39 PM   #188
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Rj 2000 LS2,

Yes; the factory service manual is interesting. It's awfully serious about the 60 degrees BTDC. However; I understand why they say 60 degrees now. (This is the exact amount required for the crankshaft water pump lock to be at to crank perfectly and line up your 4 cams to crankshaft TDC w/ waterpump crankshaft lock).

I followed the guys instructions and when I *DID* do it perfectly; I was thrilled. I did it by teeth (this was before looking at the FSM).

And the teeth was 1.5 teeth - 2 teeth. Almost certain it was 1.5 and it worked perfect and the metal went flush with the waterpump crankshaft lock.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
Your 4 of 4 photo of the new timing belt shows a pair of double lines. One of them is TDC and one is for a different vehicle. You'll need to determine which is correct. Really take your time aligning the belt to TDC, it must be dead spot on for everything to work right. And, be sure to lock it into position with the plastic timing kit wedge at a position of 9AM. You could call it 9 PM it is the same spot!

I still say, forget the crank seal repair. In order to do that repair, the entire engine will be out of time. I would leave that repair go undone. Just do the cam seals and then retime the cams as I explained. The manual is quite interesting. I see the 60 degree business, but I think you are taken it literally and that is not what it means exactly. I can't explain.
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Old 04-22-2021, 08:41 PM   #189
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Rj 2000 LS2,

Regarding the double lines. I will do some research and see if I can find someone using a DAYCO belt and bring that information back here.

Thanks for pointing that out. I know the guy in the video had a belt with a yellow and white line. Mine is different; you are correct.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
Your 4 of 4 photo of the new timing belt shows a pair of double lines. One of them is TDC and one is for a different vehicle. You'll need to determine which is correct. Really take your time aligning the belt to TDC, it must be dead spot on for everything to work right. And, be sure to lock it into position with the plastic timing kit wedge at a position of 9AM. You could call it 9 PM it is the same spot!

I still say, forget the crank seal repair. In order to do that repair, the entire engine will be out of time. I would leave that repair go undone. Just do the cam seals and then retime the cams as I explained. The manual is quite interesting. I see the 60 degree business, but I think you are taken it literally and that is not what it means exactly. I can't explain.
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Old 04-23-2021, 03:41 PM   #190
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Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Does anyone know how many 15/16th wrenches I would need to ensure safety using the cast flats that fdryer keyed me into to remove the cam sprockets safely and if I decided to attempt an adjustment (is it possible to lock BANK 1 - Cams #1 & #2 with my 15/16th wrenches on the cast flats) then start to adjust idler pulley 3PM (would the belt start to roll up and out) ?

I am thinking 1 wrench needed to do 1 cam sprocket at a time

Then I was thinking if I was doing 1 Bank; I would want to ensure that the camshafts don't spin and break stuff. Snug fit 15/16th wrenches on the cast flats would prevent the camshafts from spinning hard and fast when the belt tensioner is loosened; is this the correct notion?

If so; 3 of the wrenches should be sufficient? Or ?
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Old 04-23-2021, 06:35 PM   #191
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Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

RJ 2000 SL2,

Just a re-cap; you've said that using the crankshaft as the anchor (this is the only part that can hit parts of the engine) ? Which is why it doesn't say cam shafts in the FSM for the 60 degrees BTDC.

So when I remove the belt without the RED & GREEN keys in the camshaft sprockets in either BANK, you're saying that once the camshafts spin to their correct "default value" which is what you describe (correct me if i'm wrong) "rest".

Then after I replace everything (the idler pulleys, tensioner) and remove the camshaft sprockets and change the seals.

Then put the sprockets back on and then install the new belt (this is where, once the belt is on; is when the *NEW TIMING* kicks into play) ?

So once that new belt is @ crankshaft TDC; then my camshafts 1-4 would accept RED and GREEN keys? Is that the correct understanding?

And if so; using the wrenches on the cast flats would prevent quick spin/rotational damage of any of the cams in the "resting" process while removing the old belt?

Would that mean I need 4 wrenches then? 1 for each camshaft on it's cast flat and then release the tensioner?

Thanks!
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Old 04-23-2021, 07:36 PM   #192
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Leave one cam lock in place to hold one pair of camshafts locked while working on the other pair of camshafts without a cam lock. This allows you to concentrate on only two camshafts with a wrench on each one. One will need restraint to prevent the wrench and camshaft from rotating. This leaves one camshaft to wrestle with. One hand holding the wrench on the camshaft from rotating while the other hand with wrench loosens the camshaft bolt.

No one will guarantee you zero movement of camshaft(s) since a cam lock must be removed and idler pulleys loosened to allow belt removal when replacing cam gears. A wrench or two will not restrain camshaft rotation by itself. Each wrench must be held from rotation to loosen a cam bolt to remove a cam gear, tighten a cam gear bolt or repositioning camshaft timing back to its associated tick mark on the camshaft cover. Camshafts will move but minimizing rotation helps in repositioning. It's ok for a few degrees of rotation as long as the camshaft is monitored, wrench and restraints used to minimize rotation. A cam lock may be used for the initial loosening of a camshaft bolt (not recommended) along with a wrench as primary backup but two wrenches are needed to prevent both camshafts from pressing on the lock, making it difficult to remove. Once a camshaft lock is removed, wrenches must be used to prevent excessive camshaft rotation by acting as the lever arm to counter valve springs trying to rotate the camshaft. One camshaft must be prevented from rotating by any means using a wrench and additional restraint to hold it in place from rotating. The other cam gear wrench on the other cam gear is held in one hand with the other loosing the cam gear bolt. Once the bolt is loosened, a second restraint is needed to hold the wrench in place from rotating. This frees you to remove the cam bolt and cam to replace a seal.

Some rotation is allowed as long as you're aware how much to reverse rotation to bring it back to matching the new cam gear notch to cam cover timing mark before restraining this camshaft in preparation for the other camshaft/gear/seal removal/replacement.
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Old 04-23-2021, 07:37 PM   #193
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Information Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

The FSM says I am required to use new camshaft bolts due to it's torque / tightening method used.

I ran across some strange information.

GM Part No.: 90573287
https://www.gmpartsgiant.com/parts/g...-90573287.html
Says it's discontinued and for the Front Cylinder Head only.

The bolts all look the same to me. Apparently I am wrong.

GM Part No.: 90466737
https://www.gmpartsgiant.com/parts/g...-90466737.html
$3.34 / bolt (Rear Cylinder Head only).


https://www.wholesalegmpartsonline.com/products/Saturn/L300/BOLTSCREW-SCREW-SCHRAUBE/3121282/90573287.html


$7.04 / bolt (Front Cylinder Head).

https://www.wholesalegmpartsonline.c.../90573287.html

$7.04 / bolt (Rear Cylinder Head).

The FSM says it stretches the bolts.

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Old 04-23-2021, 09:50 PM   #194
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

fdryer,

Thank you for that. So the answer is 2 wrenches or 3?

When you say additional restraints; are the clamps that I purchased on amazon sufficient for what you are describing. I was trying to think of how to hold the wrench in place (if possible without using my hands). If there is a tool or a restraint that I could acquire; please reference me!

When rotating the camshafts from the cast flat's; do the cam sprockets move?

Can a combination of cast flat wrenching + idler adjustments prove successful I wonder. (Or are they only there for removal of the camshaft bolts) ?

Best Regards,

~ Brandon

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Leave one cam lock in place to hold one pair of camshafts locked while working on the other pair of camshafts without a cam lock. This allows you to concentrate on only two camshafts with a wrench on each one. One will need restraint to prevent the wrench and camshaft from rotating. This leaves one camshaft to wrestle with. One hand holding the wrench on the camshaft from rotating while the other hand with wrench loosens the camshaft bolt.

No one will guarantee you zero movement of camshaft(s) since a cam lock must be removed and idler pulleys loosened to allow belt removal when replacing cam gears. A wrench or two will not restrain camshaft rotation by itself. Each wrench must be held from rotation to loosen a cam bolt to remove a cam gear, tighten a cam gear bolt or repositioning camshaft timing back to its associated tick mark on the camshaft cover. Camshafts will move but minimizing rotation helps in repositioning. It's ok for a few degrees of rotation as long as the camshaft is monitored, wrench and restraints used to minimize rotation. A cam lock may be used for the initial loosening of a camshaft bolt (not recommended) along with a wrench as primary backup but two wrenches are needed to prevent both camshafts from pressing on the lock, making it difficult to remove. Once a camshaft lock is removed, wrenches must be used to prevent excessive camshaft rotation by acting as the lever arm to counter valve springs trying to rotate the camshaft. One camshaft must be prevented from rotating by any means using a wrench and additional restraint to hold it in place from rotating. The other cam gear wrench on the other cam gear is held in one hand with the other loosing the cam gear bolt. Once the bolt is loosened, a second restraint is needed to hold the wrench in place from rotating. This frees you to remove the cam bolt and cam to replace a seal.

Some rotation is allowed as long as you're aware how much to reverse rotation to bring it back to matching the new cam gear notch to cam cover timing mark before restraining this camshaft in preparation for the other camshaft/gear/seal removal/replacement.
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Last edited by BrandonKastning; 04-23-2021 at 09:51 PM. Reason: forgot the last question
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Old 04-24-2021, 05:11 AM   #195
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Stretching bolts in certain applications occur from design, hence their description as torque to yield bolts. Replace them as recommended.

I referred to service manual procedures for cam sprocket replacement. The first step is rotating the crankshaft to 60 degrees before top dead center (BTDC) then locking the crankshaft. 60° btdc would be the crankshaft timing pulley mark to the right of the engine block notch (notch@6 o'clock, pulley mark@5 o'clock). This prevents valve/piston contact. Insert cam locks. The locks are used for loosening and tightening cam gear bolts. I do not have these tools and do not know if GM cam locks are cast or machined aluminum or cast iron. Images seem to show the red and green cam locks as cast(?) aluminum. Since I do not have these tools, I cannot vouch for their ability to withstand loosening or tightening cam gear bolts per specifications; 37 ft lbs+60°+15°. No mention of using wrenches as backup when loosening/tightening bolts. Unless I can personally examine cam locks up close and insert them into position, I cannot place my faith in cam locks withstanding loosening or tightening torque although 37 ft lbs seems low relative to aluminum cam locks. I have no experience here. Wrenches ensure against cam lock damage, backup cam locks and allow rotating camshafts when necessary. Two wrenches. Service manuals do not mention camshafts rotating when locks are removed. I do not know whether or not camshaft(s) rotate if disturbed once a lock is removed or when a cam gear is removed. Rather than assume camshafts won't rotate during cam gear removal/replacement, a wrench placed on a camshaft flat can help ensure against inadvertent rotation. The trick is fastening something to a wrench to hold it against the camshaft while preventing the wrench and camshaft from rotating.

If idler pulleys aren't loosened the timing belt cannot be removed. The idlers must be loosened to relieve belt tension in order to remove the belt. The timing belt must be removed in order to remove/replace cam gears, seals or camshaft.
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Old 04-24-2021, 09:04 AM   #196
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

fdryer,

That is an outstanding response! Thank you. Exactly what I needed. I will pickup 2 wrenches; seems good enough as backup.

The RED/GREEN keys are *extremely* light weight. They scratch easily and from my experiences when I cranked the crankshaft counter-clockwise with my breaker bar with the both RED/GREEN key/locks in; I doubt the strength to withstand too much impact from the cam sprockets breaking one if not both of them.

Best Regards,

~ Brandon

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Stretching bolts in certain applications occur from design, hence their description as torque to yield bolts. Replace them as recommended.

I referred to service manual procedures for cam sprocket replacement. The first step is rotating the crankshaft to 60 degrees before top dead center (BTDC) then locking the crankshaft. 60° btdc would be the crankshaft timing pulley mark to the right of the engine block notch (notch@6 o'clock, pulley mark@5 o'clock). This prevents valve/piston contact. Insert cam locks. The locks are used for loosening and tightening cam gear bolts. I do not have these tools and do not know if GM cam locks are cast or machined aluminum or cast iron. Images seem to show the red and green cam locks as cast(?) aluminum. Since I do not have these tools, I cannot vouch for their ability to withstand loosening or tightening cam gear bolts per specifications; 37 ft lbs+60°+15°. No mention of using wrenches as backup when loosening/tightening bolts. Unless I can personally examine cam locks up close and insert them into position, I cannot place my faith in cam locks withstanding loosening or tightening torque although 37 ft lbs seems low relative to aluminum cam locks. I have no experience here. Wrenches ensure against cam lock damage, backup cam locks and allow rotating camshafts when necessary. Two wrenches. Service manuals do not mention camshafts rotating when locks are removed. I do not know whether or not camshaft(s) rotate if disturbed once a lock is removed or when a cam gear is removed. Rather than assume camshafts won't rotate during cam gear removal/replacement, a wrench placed on a camshaft flat can help ensure against inadvertent rotation. The trick is fastening something to a wrench to hold it against the camshaft while preventing the wrench and camshaft from rotating.

If idler pulleys aren't loosened the timing belt cannot be removed. The idlers must be loosened to relieve belt tension in order to remove the belt. The timing belt must be removed in order to remove/replace cam gears, seals or camshaft.
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Old 04-24-2021, 09:50 AM   #197
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

You are putting way too much brain into controlling the cams shafts! Nothing will get hurt if you allow them to go where they may. Damage is only done when the engine is running and the cams are out of time.

You want to use an impact on the cam bolts and don't force the cams, just hold them secure where ever they are. However, now that you removed the cam covers and exposed the cam shafts, you can easily use a wrench to secure the cam and remove the cam bolt without an impact wrench. I still wouldn't have undone all the fine work you completed.

Personally, I never leave engine ports open that can allow "things" to fall inside. Be sure to plug all inlets so nothing falls into your engine. Bolts are very bad, but pieces of gasket or RTV are bad too because they can plug up the oil intake and/or oil pump.

Forget about the 60 degree thing, Leave Crank at TDC for all cam seal work! Get the cam seals replaced (one at a time) and reinstall the sprocket immediately after changing one cam seal at a time. Do one at a time. Don't take all 4 sprockets off and then try to reattach them. All hell could be released if you mix any of them up.

Revisiting the "breaker bar incident". Forcing the engine in a counterclockwise direction with the cam locks installed will cause the tensioner to fail and the belt tension between all points of contact will be ruined and/or the belt could jump a tooth. This is why the cam locks will not lock precisely as this did prior. If there was a loud sound, it was likely the belt jumping a tooth.

With the CRANK locked at TDC. Once you get all 4 cams seals replaced, you can use two spanner tools on a bank at a time and retime each cam sprocket while holding the cams with the spanners in "time"(*) and insert the cam locks precisely at their respective marks. Complete both Banks and such that all cams are locked in at TDC. This will make it much easier to install the new belt.

(*) Spin each cam sprocket the shortest distance to the it's exact timing mark, aligning the marks perfectly. When both CAMs are being held with the DIY Spanner tools, exactly on their marks, the cam lock can be inserted.
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Old 04-24-2021, 10:16 AM   #198
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Rj 2000 LS2,

Thank you for the write up on this. You confused me when you went back to DIY spanner tools. (Which I do not have or have any clue other than the dimensions that you told me for a piece of wood; zero picture references and I don't know which sockets to purchase to make it correctly).

Best Regards,

~ Brandon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
You are putting way too much brain into controlling the cams shafts! Nothing will get hurt if you allow them to go where they may. Damage is only done when the engine is running and the cams are out of time.

You want to use an impact on the cam bolts and don't force the cams, just hold them secure where ever they are. However, now that you removed the cam covers and exposed the cam shafts, you can easily use a wrench to secure the cam and remove the cam bolt without an impact wrench. I still wouldn't have undone all the fine work you completed.

Personally, I never leave engine ports open that can allow "things" to fall inside. Be sure to plug all inlets so nothing falls into your engine. Bolts are very bad, but pieces of gasket or RTV are bad too because they can plug up the oil intake and/or oil pump.

Forget about the 60 degree thing, Leave Crank at TDC for all cam seal work! Get the cam seals replaced (one at a time) and reinstall the sprocket immediately after changing one cam seal at a time. Do one at a time. Don't take all 4 sprockets off and then try to reattach them. All hell could be released if you mix any of them up.

Revisiting the "breaker bar incident". Forcing the engine in a counterclockwise direction with the cam locks installed will cause the tensioner to fail and the belt tension between all points of contact will be ruined and/or the belt could jump a tooth. This is why the cam locks will not lock precisely as this did prior. If there was a loud sound, it was likely the belt jumping a tooth.

With the CRANK locked at TDC. Once you get all 4 cams seals replaced, you can use two spanner tools on a bank at a time and retime each cam sprocket while holding the cams with the spanners in "time"(*) and insert the cam locks precisely at their respective marks. Complete both Banks and such that all cams are locked in at TDC. This will make it much easier to install the new belt.

(*) Spin each cam sprocket the shortest distance to the it's exact timing mark, aligning the marks perfectly. When both CAMs are being held with the DIY Spanner tools, exactly on their marks, the cam lock can be inserted.
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Old 04-24-2021, 10:33 AM   #199
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Information Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

If anyone has DIY spanner tool assistance (if you feel my GM kit won't work); please advice me on the thread I opened to try and keep all this organized.

The thread can be found here. Thank you all!
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Old 04-24-2021, 11:25 AM   #200
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Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Okay! A new thought crossed my mind that I want to run by everyone reading this / and assisting me.

When I was rotating the crankshaft trying to fit the RED/GREEN keys into the camshaft sprockets again; each time I did a revolution; the results would change on the cams.

If this is true; and I strongly remember it being true, it's possible that removing the crankshaft waterpump lock before I get my wrenches and do another full revolution back to TDC and then lock the crankshaft again *in hopes that the camshaft lines aren't too far forward; rather being behind so that I can utilize the idler pulleys in the direction they were intended to be used*.

Does that make sense? Because in the predicament I am in; I would have to go the opposite way on the idler pulleys to make an adjustment attempt (which is literally slivers in space). I am baffled that I wouldn't be able to adjust them to fit both RED/GREEN keys.
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