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Old 01-01-2013, 05:54 PM   #41
OdieTurbo
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2005 VUE 2.4L
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Silicone grease is not a factory dielectric used anywhere on Saturns. This was done by someone else when the sensor was replaced. Most likely the connector was already beaten to death so silicone grease was used to attempt corrosion prevention. '02 Saturns and up went to brass tipped sensors after the fiasco with plastic ones in all the Saturns from '91-'01. I have the brass one in my '03 L300 and most likely every car/truck/suv in the world has the brass tipped one for coolant sensors.
Okay, the sensor was factory until I replaced it. The connector is also factory. The silicone may not actually be silicone. It is a clear substance that was under the small white cover of the black connector.

It is this connector: Link

It appears to be in perfect condition. In addition, all the temperatures I am reading are correct indicating no problem with the sensor.
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Last edited by OdieTurbo; 01-01-2013 at 05:55 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:02 PM   #42
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

Well, something is either causing excessive fuel injection or spark isn't consistent while starting. Sometimes aftermarket equipment can be very helpful, other times they're just distractions from basic troubleshooting. Don't rely on it completely as it takes away from performing manual labor.

Fuel, air and spark are needed to make engines run. While starting, either too much fuel is being injected, just the right amount is injected but spark isn't consistent or not enough fuel is injected and spark is consistent. There are many variables involved in starting and running engines. Perhaps taking a step back and thinking this over a bit may help.

Leaving the fuel pressure gauge connected, as long as its not a hazard, may help too.

Spot readings are fine but not indicative of a dynamic situation; the cold engine reading one temperature but will the scan gauge continue updating immediately as the engine is started (eventually) and read climbing temps? The pcm is ON the moment the ignition is turned ON; its just waiting for the cps to allow it to operate. If you have another coolant sensor plugged in, heat it with your bare hand, hot water, whatever, and observe the scan gauge - it should should show climbing temps as the pcm sees it, not a spot temperature reading. Remove and use the engine sensor if you have to, to perform this test as a way to check all wiring and connections.
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:37 PM   #43
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2005 VUE 2.4L
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Well, something is either causing excessive fuel injection or spark isn't consistent while starting. Sometimes aftermarket equipment can be very helpful, other times they're just distractions from basic troubleshooting. Don't rely on it completely as it takes away from performing manual labor.

Fuel, air and spark are needed to make engines run. While starting, either too much fuel is being injected, just the right amount is injected but spark isn't consistent or not enough fuel is injected and spark is consistent. There are many variables involved in starting and running engines. Perhaps taking a step back and thinking this over a bit may help.

Leaving the fuel pressure gauge connected, as long as its not a hazard, may help too.

Spot readings are fine but not indicative of a dynamic situation; the cold engine reading one temperature but will the scan gauge continue updating immediately as the engine is started (eventually) and read climbing temps? The pcm is ON the moment the ignition is turned ON; its just waiting for the cps to allow it to operate. If you have another coolant sensor plugged in, heat it with your bare hand, hot water, whatever, and observe the scan gauge - it should should show climbing temps as the pcm sees it, not a spot temperature reading. Remove and use the engine sensor if you have to, to perform this test as a way to check all wiring and connections.
I believe I have the old sensor to use for this test, if not, I will use the one in the car. I will do so tomorrow after work. Also, I will re-check the spark, looking for consistency while cranking.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:55 PM   #44
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2002 SC2
1998 SL2
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

Quote:
Originally Posted by OdieTurbo View Post
Okay. Fuel pressure is still about 58 psi.
FP is out of spec... for 1998-2002, should be 45-51 PSI with the key turned to the ON position, engine off or at idle

Sounds like flooding/excess pressure; PCM is enriching fuel at lower temps on top of things

The 98-02 fuel filter has an integrated pressure regulator, and the only fuel filters that are known to provide the proper pressure are: OEM, Wix 33731 or NAPA-branded equivalent, or GK Industries GF1846
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:22 PM   #45
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2005 VUE 2.4L
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

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Originally Posted by alordofchaos View Post
FP is out of spec... for 1998-2002, should be 45-51 PSI with the key turned to the ON position, engine off or at idle

Sounds like flooding/excess pressure; PCM is enriching fuel at lower temps on top of things

The 98-02 fuel filter has an integrated pressure regulator, and the only fuel filters that are known to provide the proper pressure are: OEM, Wix 33731 or NAPA-branded equivalent, or GK Industries GF1846
I do not believe the fuel pressure to be an issue. Prior to replacing the filter, the car had this problem.

However, with what I've read, I think I'll take the filter back to Advance - I think it's still under warranty. I'll then get the recommended brand. This will rule out fuel pressure issues.
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:21 PM   #46
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2005 VUE 2.4L
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

Well, I did another fuel pressure test, this time while cranking. Fuel pressure was in the 45-52 range as it cranked. 52 while sitting there not cranking. This is with a new fuel pressure gauge from Harbor Freight.

While examining components I noticed some corrosion on the ground cable where it attaches to the transmission. I took that apart and cleaned it.

Just for jollies, I decided to take the spark plug wires off the ignition module and observe it again. I noted that the spark was occasional - not regular like it should be. I tested it several times to be sure. Sometimes you can count to 4 or 5 between sparks, sometimes just 1 or 2. I don't see any way to test the module in my Haynes manual, so I'll just get a new one and try it.
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:40 PM   #47
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

Junk yard nearby? Members buying used ignition parts save money against buying new.
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:05 PM   #48
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2005 VUE 2.4L
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

Yes, there is one, but only have 2 Saturns. One from a flood, and one where the nose is all smashed up. I was just down there getting some other parts last Saturday. I also won't be able to get there to yank a module until next Saturday. I'll just order it from RockAuto with a discount code.
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:12 PM   #49
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

While waiting for new parts, was the ignition system ever removed for corrosion cleaning? I'm loathe to review this thread from the beginning.................
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:26 AM   #50
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2005 VUE 2.4L
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
While waiting for new parts, was the ignition system ever removed for corrosion cleaning? I'm loathe to review this thread from the beginning.................
What part in particular? The ignition module? I did remove, clean, and re-install it to no effect.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:43 AM   #51
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

Yes, ign module and coils. With your last spark test showing less than reliable spark, I think you found the problem. Please update this thread with any new info.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:32 PM   #52
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2005 VUE 2.4L
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Yes, ign module and coils. With your last spark test showing less than reliable spark, I think you found the problem. Please update this thread with any new info.
Put the new ignition module in this morning and it fired right up. Fired right up all day long as the wife took it to run some errands. Problem is the temp was above 40 degrees so I have no idea if it is actually fixed!

I'll check it tomorrow morning while it's below 40 and see if it works.
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:24 AM   #53
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2005 VUE 2.4L
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

And it's not fixed. Temp finally dropped below 40 this morning. Turned the key, car just cranked. So I turned the key off, put the pedal to the floor and tried again. Cranked for a little bit then caught and ran.

I'm going nuts here. Why can't I find a good troubleshooting guide for this car?
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:45 AM   #54
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Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

There are no such things as a "good troubleshooting guide" for any vehicle, just the GM service manual. The same for any other vehicle manufacturer. While service manuals are the only manuals used by every dealership, well experienced mechanics/technicians read between the lines to reduce costs, if you believe it. By and large, service manuals are written to replace everything in logical order according to how things fail. No repairs, rebuilding, cleaning, oiling, nothing. Replace, replace, replace, period. This also keeps return visits to a minimum as most repairs are satisfactory. The rest are replacing everything including the kitchen sink since they don't have a clue and are well past guessing by throwing parts at a car to the owner's dismay. All service manuals are written with extensive troubleshooting to guide most trained people in a dealership to "follow the yellow brick road." Cookie cutter style. No short cuts.

What you may have to do now is to duplicate this problem in the same weather conditions but now use everything on hand to monitor fuel and ignition. The pressure gauge should be left on during these cold weather starts and spark testing is needed. Unfortunately, until a better solution comes along, testing and monitoring seems to be the only way to narrow down this problem - fuel or ignition. Keep in mind that wiring is related and can be difficult to find.

My first fuel injected engine began showing signs of start up stalling. Long before a fuel test valve became standardized I had to physically connect a fuel pressure gauge using a 'T' fitting between the engine mounted fuel filter and fuel rail to monitor fuel pressure. Left on this way I was able to find the culprit; the fuel pump micro switch was worn and required 'tweaking' to operate. Seeing the fuel pressure jump up and die allowed troubleshooting to find the issue. I would be blind without the right tools/equipment for troubleshooting.

Verify fuel to each cylinder, ensure spark to each plug at the temperature what starting fails.
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Last edited by fdryer; 01-14-2013 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:17 PM   #55
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2002 SC1
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

wait a few more years for global warming to kick in
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:03 PM   #56
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Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

man this sounds like a nightmare, I have been having the same no start problem with my 2002 sl2 this winter and i feel for you OdieTurbo. I did have some luck when i replaced my spark plugs and ect sensor. my car seems to start regularly now but i still worry every morning when its cold. i wish you luck with your car troubles and hope things work out.

just out of the blue, when you do get your car to start when its that cold (even using the gas pedal to the floor method) do you have heat in the cabin?
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:38 AM   #57
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Happy Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

When I bought my first ever 2001 SL 84,000 miles, everything seemed ok. Then the engine ran cool, interior heat was minimal so I changed the thermostat. A month or two later the idle went to 2000 rpms, I changed the TPS without removing the throttle body. I removed the throttle body intake hose to get better access for the replacement of the TPS. I could not help but notice a thoroughly coated black oily soot as if the engine had 200.000 + miles. Then seven months/6000 miles later I went to change the AIC because the idle was getting to high again. Removing the intake hose from the throttle body I was surprised to see the black oily soot had coated the entire throat of the throttle body again. Not as thick as the first time but not cool at all. I know the source of this (the recycling of crankcase gases) but still this requires a lot of maintenance to keep clean. My 1991 Olds Cutlass 130,000 never required this kind of up keep. Overall I still love this car but that has really set me back some.
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:06 AM   #58
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2005 VUE 2.4L
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

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man this sounds like a nightmare, I have been having the same no start problem with my 2002 sl2 this winter and i feel for you OdieTurbo. I did have some luck when i replaced my spark plugs and ect sensor. my car seems to start regularly now but i still worry every morning when its cold. i wish you luck with your car troubles and hope things work out.

just out of the blue, when you do get your car to start when its that cold (even using the gas pedal to the floor method) do you have heat in the cabin?
Interesting you ask that. Once I get the car running, there is barely any heat. This was going to be my next item to tackle. I thought it odd since the water pump and thermostat were replaced about 2 years ago.
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:07 AM   #59
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2005 VUE 2.4L
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

Quote:
Originally Posted by fm2200 View Post
When I bought my first ever 2001 SL 84,000 miles, everything seemed ok. Then the engine ran cool, interior heat was minimal so I changed the thermostat. A month or two later the idle went to 2000 rpms, I changed the TPS without removing the throttle body. I removed the throttle body intake hose to get better access for the replacement of the TPS. I could not help but notice a thoroughly coated black oily soot as if the engine had 200.000 + miles. Then seven months/6000 miles later I went to change the AIC because the idle was getting to high again. Removing the intake hose from the throttle body I was surprised to see the black oily soot had coated the entire throat of the throttle body again. Not as thick as the first time but not cool at all. I know the source of this (the recycling of crankcase gases) but still this requires a lot of maintenance to keep clean. My 1991 Olds Cutlass 130,000 never required this kind of up keep. Overall I still love this car but that has really set me back some.
I've got the same problem with the carbon buildup. I usually clean it every year but forgot to last year and the buildup was unbelievable.
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:25 PM   #60
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Cranks for a long time before starting

Quote:
Originally Posted by OdieTurbo View Post
Interesting you ask that. Once I get the car running, there is barely any heat. This was going to be my next item to tackle. I thought it odd since the water pump and thermostat were replaced about 2 years ago.
I still have that same problem even though my car starts right up. and the heater core, and thermostat are fairly new and rad has been flushed somewhat recently. not to change the subject of the thread but if i could pick your brain i was wondering where you might start with something like this?

sidenote: this heat problem usually only happens in the colder weather like your no start problem.
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