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Old 05-06-2010, 07:33 PM   #1
Bear xXx Grylls
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Default Fuel Tuning

I have been searching for several hours in this website and generally on Google and have received little information to help me.

My engine is running in a lean condition, not tripping the idiot light

I have access to some snap-on tuning computer through a friend of a friends, friend and was wondering if this would be able to solve my lean condition or must I upgrade my fuel pump and injectors.



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Upgrades: CAI, Fidanza Flywheel, Stage 3 Clutch, Full Exhaust
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Old 05-06-2010, 08:14 PM   #2
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

Would you enlighten us as to how your engine is running lean?

There can several sensors/parts that can cause lean running, if in fact the engine is running lean; pressure regulator, O2 sensor, vacuum leak, iats, ects, to name a few.
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Old 05-06-2010, 08:24 PM   #3
Bear xXx Grylls
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

As I said I have no Service lights coming on, so to the point it is difficult for me to tell. When I pulled the spark plugs the other day, they were as white as they could possibly be, and from what I was always told this indicates a lean condition. I did have oil leaking into the cylinder heads, but a quick MMO soak cleared the problem up quick. Spark plugs where nice gunky black prior to that.

Without any sensors tripping a Service light and me checking it through the computer I am unsure as how to tell if any of my sensors have gone amuck.

I put in a new PCV Valve the other day, the original was getting worn. I will check my vacuum lines tomorrow. And my valve cover had a crack, so that is being replaced. Those are the only two issues I have right now.

I could see problems coming from the O2 sensor in the air intake, I got a cheapy one off ebay which works great, but the area where the sensor is supposed to go into is just some rubber insert that you forcefully put the sensor into.
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Old 05-07-2010, 12:04 AM   #4
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear xXx Grylls View Post
As I said I have no Service lights coming on, so to the point it is difficult for me to tell. When I pulled the spark plugs the other day, they were as white as they could possibly be, and from what I was always told this indicates a lean condition. I did have oil leaking into the cylinder heads, but a quick MMO soak cleared the problem up quick. Spark plugs where nice gunky black prior to that.

Without any sensors tripping a Service light and me checking it through the computer I am unsure as how to tell if any of my sensors have gone amuck.

I put in a new PCV Valve the other day, the original was getting worn. I will check my vacuum lines tomorrow. And my valve cover had a crack, so that is being replaced. Those are the only two issues I have right now.

I could see problems coming from the O2 sensor in the air intake, I got a cheapy one off ebay which works great, but the area where the sensor is supposed to go into is just some rubber insert that you forcefully put the sensor into.
In my experience, spark plugs tend to be "whiter" in color in most modern fuel injected cars. I consider it normal. A bad vacuum hose somewhere wouldn't cause it to run lean enough for it to be harmful to the engine anyways.

It's not something I'd be too concerned about. I would be thankful it's running a little lean as opposed to running too rich like most S-Series do.

FYI that sensor in your air intake is an ambient air temp sensor, not an oxygen sensor.
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Old 05-07-2010, 01:12 AM   #5
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear xXx Grylls View Post
As I said I have no Service lights coming on, so to the point it is difficult for me to tell. When I pulled the spark plugs the other day, they were as white as they could possibly be, and from what I was always told this indicates a lean condition. I did have oil leaking into the cylinder heads, but a quick MMO soak cleared the problem up quick. Spark plugs where nice gunky black prior to that.

Without any sensors tripping a Service light and me checking it through the computer I am unsure as how to tell if any of my sensors have gone amuck.

I put in a new PCV Valve the other day, the original was getting worn. I will check my vacuum lines tomorrow. And my valve cover had a crack, so that is being replaced. Those are the only two issues I have right now.

I could see problems coming from the O2 sensor in the air intake, I got a cheapy one off ebay which works great, but the area where the sensor is supposed to go into is just some rubber insert that you forcefully put the sensor into.
that air temp sensor decides whether or not you run lean. not having it inserted in your air tubing can and probably will cause premature engine failure, I would have to assume.. especially on a "full exhaust" setup

I use this to make my WAI work.. and to not have it installed properly means you car will constantly being using A DIFFERENT FUEL RATIO THAN IT SHOULD

ANYTHING OTHER THAN INSTALLING THIS PROPERLY WOULD PROBABLY BE A WASTE OF YOUR TIME... BESIDES CHECKING YOU RATIO AFTER YOU INSTALL IT RIGHT

IT MUST BE INSTALLED IN YOUR AIR INTAKE TUBING TO MEASURE THE ACTUAL TEMPURATURE OF THE AIR GOING INTO THE ENGINE.

PEOPLE INSTALL ALL THIS RACER STUFF AND DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT THEYRE REALLY DOING, WOW... I BLAME WHOEVER SOLD YOU THE STUFF..(NO INSTRUCTIONS, OR MAYBE YOU DIDN'T FOLLOW THEM?

HOW DO YOU THINK A COLD AIR INTAKE KNOWS THE AIR IS COLD? WITH A AIR TEMP SENSOR, AIT
you dont even have a CAI, you have a where ever your temp sensor is sitting intake, a true cold air intake, blocks out warm air, you're new HERE SO I WILL HOPE YOU WILL TRUST WHAT IM SAYING, BEING A MPG MISER

Last edited by bobyjones; 05-07-2010 at 01:24 AM.
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Old 05-07-2010, 04:56 PM   #6
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

Since "Full Exhaust" is such an evil thing to say then here.

OBX headers, Resonator removed replaced with straight pipe with a california turbo muffler. All stock pipe size.

Thanks for the info though Ruley. As I was browsing the forums I began to learn that saturns ran rich, which I have never experienced.

What I am looking at doing now is increasing the volume of fuel injected into the cylinders and advancing the timing on the camshaft to compensate for not only the lean condition of the engine but also the increase of fuel.
If anyone has any experience or insight on this it would be super fantastic awesome if you could share your input.

I will post my findings as I go through with this.

And the only thing bobby jones was helpful for was reminding me I need to reroute that AIT sensor up to my throttle body.

P.S. Bobby, it is a proven fact you can't trust people who type in all caps and act like they are rocket scientists.
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

If you are certain that the plugs are showing a leaned mixture, there are some things to consider before attempting to alter injector pulses or advancing timing. Its almost impossible to increase injector timing and advancing timing simply increases the time for fuel burn beyond design that increases heat resulting in a hotter engine that's already lean. This would most likely result in misfiring. If it were possible, timing should be decreased to lower combustion temps some to counter a lean situation. All this is just theory when avoiding some things not mentioned; fuel pressure and incorrect spark plugs. Injector pulses and timing are fixed in programming.

Are the plugs the correct ones and not one heat range hotter? Usually a plug one heat range hotter was recommended (old school) to counter misfiring from worn out rings allowing more oil past them into the upper cylinders. The hotter plug (basically a longer center electrode/ceramic to retain heat longer than the shorter standard size plug) would help burn off the excess oil. In your case, if nothing can correct this lean condition, a colder plug would be recommended (shorter center electrode/ceramic).

Did you check fuel pressure? Your engine calls for 40-55psi. A lean running engine can result from lower fuel pressure; if pump pressures are below 40psi the injectors may already be maxed out insofar as maximum pulse time. Even mistakenly going to larger injectors wouldn't help if fuel pressures are too low to push fuel out each injector. One recent member with an oldie, TBI Saturn, suffered from something resembling a rich low power condition; leaking fuel out an original throttle body (single) injector from the built-in pressure regulator. A new diaphragm and some TLC brought fuel pressure back up to specs and all 85hp returned.
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear xXx Grylls View Post
Since "Full Exhaust" is such an evil thing to say then here.

OBX headers, Resonator removed replaced with straight pipe with a california turbo muffler. All stock pipe size.

Thanks for the info though Ruley. As I was browsing the forums I began to learn that saturns ran rich, which I have never experienced.

What I am looking at doing now is increasing the volume of fuel injected into the cylinders and advancing the timing on the camshaft to compensate for not only the lean condition of the engine but also the increase of fuel.
If anyone has any experience or insight on this it would be super fantastic awesome if you could share your input.

I will post my findings as I go through with this.

And the only thing bobby jones was helpful for was reminding me I need to reroute that AIT sensor up to my throttle body.

P.S. Bobby, it is a proven fact you can't trust people who type in all caps and act like they are rocket scientists.
You do not need to increase the amount of fuel the engine is getting. It's already running rich, you won't gain power from more fuel. In fact, you will gain power from a tuner like an SAFCII and REMOVING fuel. Get a wideband oxygen sensor and SAFCII and go to town, but make sure you're up to snuff on maintenance first - no sense in trying to tune around worn out components.
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

Bear xXx Grylls -

I don't think the air-intake sensor is the problem *if* the car is going into closed loop mode as it should :

Tech - Closed Loop
http://www.hondata.com/techclosed.html
Quote:
Mixture

The air/fuel mixture is expressed either as the ratio of air to fuel vapor or as a lambda value. The lambda value is derived from the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio, which is the chemically correct ratio of air to fuel for complete combustion to take place. The stoichiometric ratio is 14.7:1 when expressed as an air/fuel ratio, or 1 when expressed as a lambda value. A richer mixture will have a lower air/fuel ratio and lower lambda value. e.g. an air/fuel ratio of 12.5:1 equals a lambda value of 0.85, and is a typical value for a naturally aspirated engine under full load.

Stoichiometry

The ECU aims to keep the air/fuel ratio close to the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio in order for the catalytic converter to work at maximum efficiency. This air/fuel ratio also gives good fuel economy. Under increased engine load the optimum air/fuel ratio is richer than the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio in order to give maximum engine output and prevent engine damage.

Oxygen Sensors

An oxygen sensor produces an electric voltage from the different levels of oxygen present in the air and the exhaust gas. If the mixture is rich then the exhaust gas will contain very little oxygen. The oxygen sensor will therefore product a voltage output, which the ECU senses and determines that the fuel mixture is rich. Conversely if the fuel mixture is lean then the exhaust gas will contain higher levels of oxygen, which produces a lower voltage output. The normal range of the oxygen sensor output signal is about 0.2V to 1.2V It should be noted that most stock oxygen sensors are designed to be particularly sensitive around the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio.

Closed Loop

In closed loop operation the ECU uses one or more oxygen sensors as a feedback loop in order to adjust the fuel mixture. This gives the name ‘closed loop’ from the closed feedback loop. The ECU won’t run in a closed feedback loop all the time, so ‘open loop’ is used to describe the operation of the ECU when the mixture is not being adjusted in this way (usually when the engine is cold or when running under high load).

In closed loop operation the ECU uses the oxygen sensor to tell if the fuel mixture is rich or lean. However, due to the characteristics of the oxygen sensor it can’t tell exactly how rich or lean, it only knows that the mixture is richer or leaner than optimum. The ECU will enrich the mixture if the oxygen sensor shows that the mixture is lean, and lean the mixture if it looks rich. The result of this is that the mixture will swing back and forward around the stoichiometric point.
From what I have learned, the air-intake sensor is less of a factor when the engine is in closed-loop. It is a factor in open-loop mode, aka when the engine is heating up, or when you are under high-load, aka an extreme acceleration event. Even when I accelerate to go on the freeway, I never see it enter open-loop.

I would *guess* that you have a tired oxygen sensor. The sensor I am talking about is installed in the exhaust manifold, where the four exhaust outlets come together. I can imagine a situation where the *actual* Air/Fuel Ratio (AFR) is oscillating leaner than the stoich 14.7 AFR, but the 02 sensor is reporting 14.7 AFR.

Question: When an 02 sensor goes bad, does it start or "cheat lean" or "cheat rich"? Or is this a "it depends" question?

But wait for more responses before going out and buying an 02 sensor.

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Old 05-07-2010, 09:56 PM   #10
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

Actually from the sounds of it your IAT should be fine. The rubber grommet is in the direct flow of air correct? If not you can also place it within a pleat of the filter... just make sure it measures the intake air temp in either case.

Personally without running the car on a dyno with a wide band O2, I wouldn't assume it's running lean, and I surely wouldn't try to richen it up on a maybe hunch. Deposits will often affect the appearance of plugs, which to be honest most people have been reading wrong for years anyway.
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Old 05-07-2010, 11:53 PM   #11
Bear xXx Grylls
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

Lots of awesome information coming up.

I think it wont be a matter of adjusting fuel and timing, but fooling with my o2 sensor, iat sensor, and possible replacing my fuel pump which has an original 200k miles on it.

I through my iat sensor right next to the throttle body today, but i have seen a loss in power and more so in the higher range. I looked to a couple other places stating an optimum position would be right by the fender well. Would make sense seeing as the ecu would interpret this as super cold air coming into the engine thus putting more fuel in. I may just put it back in the stock locations as I had no problems there before.

Also the vent line from the valve cover was dumping oil into the air intake. stuck my finger down there and looked like i just dumped a bottle of oil down there. I think this problem also stems from a crack in the valve cover right next to the vent line.

I would still like to look into tuning it on a computer just for kicks and giggles.
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Old 05-08-2010, 08:11 AM   #12
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear xXx Grylls View Post
Since "Full Exhaust" is such an evil thing to say then here.

OBX headers, Resonator removed replaced with straight pipe with a california turbo muffler. All stock pipe size.

Thanks for the info though Ruley. As I was browsing the forums I began to learn that saturns ran rich, which I have never experienced.

What I am looking at doing now is increasing the volume of fuel injected into the cylinders and advancing the timing on the camshaft to compensate for not only the lean condition of the engine but also the increase of fuel.
If anyone has any experience or insight on this it would be super fantastic awesome if you could share your input.

I will post my findings as I go through with this.

And the only thing bobby jones was helpful for was reminding me I need to reroute that AIT sensor up to my throttle body.

P.S. Bobby, it is a proven fact you can't trust people who type in all caps and act like they are rocket scientists.
your still not getting it a hot ait will cause lean

but good try on the ego-brainiac comment, you're still doing it wrong

i didnt say full exhaust was evil, i meant when you hype up your turd, you might want to have you sensors connected correctly

just a thought

Last edited by bobyjones; 05-08-2010 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 05-08-2010, 08:23 AM   #13
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

the caps were to imply "Hey smart guy, you're gonna screw your car up running lean, ever heard of melted pistons?"
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Old 05-08-2010, 02:10 PM   #14
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobyjones View Post
the caps were to imply "Hey smart guy, you're gonna screw your car up running lean, ever heard of melted pistons?"
I think you'd be hard pressed to find just one example of a modern fuel-injected automobile engine with melted pistons that wasn't extensively modified or overheated due to coolant loss.

Melted pistons virtually never occur in modern automobile engines because the engine management is designed with safeguards in place that don't allow adjustment of the fuel curve to an extreme enough degree that would cause this to occur. This is even becoming less of an issue with small engines like those in ATVs & snowmobiles because they are implementing vastly improved engine management. Melted pistons was/still is a very common issue when snowmobiles don't have big enough jets in the carbs for cooler weather.
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Old 05-09-2010, 04:58 PM   #15
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

By this post you should know that my intentions weren't to run lean. Unless you can't read. The whole point of this was to find a way to stop my car from running lean and get things up to par performance wise.

Also Boby, read CFG83's post. It might be helpful to you.

If the car was running lean in upper rpms I would not see my spark plugs as white as I am now, since I dont run upper rpms very often. I do a lot of city driving so it is somewhat difficult to go 6krpm in every gear. Obviously not the IAT sensor if I were to follow the information provided by CFG83's post. This would conclude that it could either be the O2 sensor or the fuel pumpe, a combination of both or another assortment of small issues causing a singular problem.

So, I would advise you Boby, to longer give mechanical advice since it seems if anyone where to follow it they would be doing more harm than good.
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Old 05-10-2010, 12:11 AM   #16
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

White plugs are not evidence alone of running lean. Unless you actually find that the car is running lean it's somewhat crazy to try to richen the mixture.
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:53 AM   #17
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear xXx Grylls View Post
By this post you should know that my intentions weren't to run lean. Unless you can't read. The whole point of this was to find a way to stop my car from running lean and get things up to par performance wise.

Also Boby, read CFG83's post. It might be helpful to you.

If the car was running lean in upper rpms I would not see my spark plugs as white as I am now, since I dont run upper rpms very often. I do a lot of city driving so it is somewhat difficult to go 6krpm in every gear. Obviously not the IAT sensor if I were to follow the information provided by CFG83's post. This would conclude that it could either be the O2 sensor or the fuel pumpe, a combination of both or another assortment of small issues causing a singular problem.

So, I would advise you Boby, to longer give mechanical advice since it seems if anyone where to follow it they would be doing more harm than good.

no i would advise you you to stop posting on this forum because your bad attitude is doing more harm than good, i can read obviously, you come on this forum, and claim to not have your sensors connected, you're the stupid one
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:55 AM   #18
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Default Re: Fuel Tuning

yea, melted pistons probably would be hard to find, but you're bringing yourself closer to detonation, but whatevs im done helping dumb ricers
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