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Old 10-05-2020, 08:25 PM   #1
BrandonKastning
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Question 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Pulley (Locking-How?)

Hey everyone!

I was working on getting the water pump pulley bolts off using a 10 mm wrench. I tried using a piece of wood as pictured to attempt to hold the pulley in place.

What would someone recommend for me to get these bolts out properly?

Thanks a bunch!

Best Regards,

~ Brandon

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Old 10-05-2020, 08:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Pulley (Locking-How?)

Make a spanner tool. Two holes in wooden board where you attach two sockets to the holes using bolts/nuts. This allows you to use the board as a wrench by putting the attached sockets into the holes in the water pump pulley, or power steering pulley, or the cam pulleys. It works for all them as they are similar spacing.
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Old 10-05-2020, 09:38 PM   #3
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Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Pulley (Locking-How?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
Make a spanner tool. Two holes in wooden board where you attach two sockets to the holes using bolts/nuts. This allows you to use the board as a wrench by putting the attached sockets into the holes in the water pump pulley, or power steering pulley, or the cam pulleys. It works for all them as they are similar spacing.
RJ,

Do you have a visual example?
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Old 10-05-2020, 09:52 PM   #4
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Pulley (Locking-How?)

I don't recall making a tool to hold the water pump pulley. If the belt isn't removed, there should be enough tension to break the small bolts loose. The belt tension holds the pulley and a hand on the pulley can provide just enough grip to break loose those three bolts. I don't remember using any tools on this pulley and I have average hand strength. The most valuable tool is the one between the ears. If this method doesn't work........

Notice the two machined flats on the pump shaft? It's there to place an open end wrench, adjustable crescent wrench or channel lock plier on those flats to prevent the pulley from turning as you loosen each bolt. Adjustable crescent wrenches come in various sizes. Channel lock pliers too.

The water pump pulley bolts are prevented from loosening by using blue loctite. A glue that dries and becomes a powder and interferes with vibration from loosening nuts and bolts. Blue loctite on threads are medium strength and sometimes difficult to break the glue bond but small bolts don't require gorilla strength to loosen or tighten. Blue loctite is used on high strength bolts, the ones used to hold the front disc brake caliper brackets to the wheel hub. The brake calipers float across the caliper frames on two caliper pins bolted to the caliper bracket. When removing nuts or bolts using blue loctite, it may appear as a white powder on threads. When applying blue loctite, its watery with a distinctive blue color.
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Old 10-05-2020, 10:59 PM   #5
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Pulley (Locking-How?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
I don't recall making a tool to hold the water pump pulley. If the belt isn't removed, there should be enough tension to break the small bolts loose. The belt tension holds the pulley and a hand on the pulley can provide just enough grip to break loose those three bolts. I don't remember using any tools on this pulley and I have average hand strength. The most valuable tool is the one between the ears. If this method doesn't work........

Notice the two machined flats on the pump shaft? It's there to place an open end wrench, adjustable crescent wrench or channel lock plier on those flats to prevent the pulley from turning as you loosen each bolt. Adjustable crescent wrenches come in various sizes. Channel lock pliers too.

The water pump pulley bolts are prevented from loosening by using blue loctite. A glue that dries and becomes a powder and interferes with vibration from loosening nuts and bolts. Blue loctite on threads are medium strength and sometimes difficult to break the glue bond but small bolts don't require gorilla strength to loosen or tighten. Blue loctite is used on high strength bolts, the ones used to hold the front disc brake caliper brackets to the wheel hub. The brake calipers float across the caliper frames on two caliper pins bolted to the caliper bracket. When removing nuts or bolts using blue loctite, it may appear as a white powder on threads. When applying blue loctite, its watery with a distinctive blue color.
fdryer,

That's genius! I am glad you told me this. I will re-vert backwards and then move forward again!

Thank you for telling me about the blue loctite also. Do you recommend using loctite on all my bolts? If so; do I need different loctite for each type of part?

This should do the trick!

Best Regards, as always!

~ Brandon
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Old 10-05-2020, 11:26 PM   #6
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Pulley (Locking-How?)

Genius, no, scraped knuckles, learning, reading, practice, yes. Mistakes here and there makes me ordinary.

Read your service manuals on each repair. Loctite is recommended only when needed and a part may not be easily accessible or disassembled for a long period of time. I cannot state with certainty to use loctite everywhere. Using it presents its own problems - threaded parts must be cleaned of grease, oil and dirt for loctite to be effective. Some use it religiously, others just tighten a bit more and never clean threaded parts. The science of fasteners can be tedious and boring for every day repairs with filthy parts. New parts being assembled for the first time are clean without a spec of dirt, oil or grease so its easy to apply loctite. Practice, gaining experience may be one way to judge when to use loctite or not otherwise cleaning threaded parts with acetone, brush and rags are the recommended method for using loctite to ensure a locked thread won't loosen.

Service manuals are explicitly written for dealer service personnel performing professional services. Along with professional services are liability issues if they do not follow manual procedures that may result in damage that can be traced to neglect. As diyers, we assume all risks to repairs whether or not following service manuals. Car repairs may be compared to aircraft repairs with one exception. An unlicensed person performing repairs on aircraft that results in that aircraft crashing and killing or injuring people in the aircraft and/or on the ground carries more weight in having licensed mechanics that sign off on any work for a record in case an accident occurred and is traced back to faulty maintenance. There are horror stories of commercial aircraft brought down by inept licensed mechanics, revealed only be careful investigations to uncover where fault lies. Pilots head the list of failures with poor maintenance following behind, weather and poor communications between pilots and radar controllers. People die from shortcuts in aircraft maintenance, poor pilot skills. An engine that breaks down many time doesn't kill or injure anyone from not following procedures in repairs. More latitude is given for car maintenance. Not so with aircraft maintenance.
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Last edited by fdryer; 10-05-2020 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 10-06-2020, 10:25 AM   #7
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Pulley (Locking-How?)

Typical pulley spanner tool https://www.misterworker.com/en/faco...tcle/6492.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_TfAACwJac

You can make your own on a single straight board. It isn't rocket science.

Last edited by Rj 2000 LS2; 10-06-2020 at 10:27 AM. Reason: Adding YT Link describing pulley tool
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Old 10-06-2020, 04:34 PM   #8
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Wrench SOLVED: Thanks fdryer!

Solved!

Gallery A:

1/2

Water Pump Pulley Bolts Removal using cheap vise grips + Water Pump Cover Removal

Wrench: 10mm
Vise Grips: Small-Medium Sized


Thanks again!

Best Regards,

~ Brandon
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_20201006_111059.jpg (213.7 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg 2_20201006_111106.jpg (214.3 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg 3_20201006_112855.jpg (211.1 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg 4_20201006_112900.jpg (207.3 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 5_20201006_112958.jpg (210.4 KB, 8 views)
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Old 10-06-2020, 04:36 PM   #9
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Wrench SOLVED: Thanks fdryer!!

Gallery B:

2/2

Water Pump Pulley Bolts Removal using cheap vise grips + Water Pump Cover Removal

Wrench: 10mm
Vise Grips: Small-Medium Sized


Thanks again!

Best Regards,

~ Brandon
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 6_20201006_113008.jpg (213.2 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg 7_20201006_113017.jpg (97.3 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg 8_20201006_113033.jpg (128.8 KB, 5 views)
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Old 10-06-2020, 05:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Pulley (Locking-How?)

Warning: Read first before moving forward!
Before you remove the timing belt cover, insert the timing belt cam locks immediately. If you start to loosen any idler or the belt tensioner the cams will move. They are under force from the valve springs on the cams. Be very careful to get both cams lock firmly in place before you start to remove the belt by loosening anything!

The procedure to lock the cams... spin the engine (clockwise) to find TDC observing the mark on the bottom of the crankshaft gear. It will be facing straight down when at TDC providing you are not 180 degrees out. Best practice is to remove the #1 plug to verify TDC. Only turn the engine clockwise using the socket on the crank bolt. The special socket is included in the timing belt kit. When the engine is at TDC the cam locks will easily slide into place. If you simply try to insert them any other place than TDC... they literally won't fit and you'll need to damage the cam locks to insert them. This is because the timing belt is designed to walk, it either advances or drops a tooth every two spins of the engine. I can't remember which is correct. It belt walks to limit the belt always landing on the exact same tooth during every revolution to limit excess wear. This is why you MUST forget the timing marks on the belt after you start timing the engine.

IF you take to time to find TDC, lock the cams at that point... you will have no trouble installing cam locks, removing and installing a new timing belt.

There are two TDC marks on the belts meant to be used with different engines. So be sure to start on the correct color mark on the belt. I don't remember which color is correct, but you will easily figure it out as you start threading the belt counter clockwise around the various pulleys. You'll have to figure that out by yourself. If you start at the bottom and align the belt to the TDC mark on the sprocket, and then continue counter clockwise around replacing idliers etc... and installing the belt... it will line up perfectly. I wrote about how to install tensioner in previous posts. There are many iterations you must do properly or you will have to great deal of major headaches!

If you screw up, don't attempt to slap the engine back together and try to start it because you will destroy valves. I had to take to time to fully understand everything about the timing of the Saturn engine in order to re-time our Saturn after the cams spun to rest. It's a very sinking feeling... so take your time and do it right! I was lucking enough to fix ours properly.
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Old 10-06-2020, 09:27 PM   #11
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Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Pulley (Locking-How?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
Warning: Read first before moving forward!
Before you remove the timing belt cover, insert the timing belt cam locks immediately. If you start to loosen any idler or the belt tensioner the cams will move. They are under force from the valve springs on the cams. Be very careful to get both cams lock firmly in place before you start to remove the belt by loosening anything!

The procedure to lock the cams... spin the engine (clockwise) to find TDC observing the mark on the bottom of the crankshaft gear. It will be facing straight down when at TDC providing you are not 180 degrees out. Best practice is to remove the #1 plug to verify TDC. Only turn the engine clockwise using the socket on the crank bolt. The special socket is included in the timing belt kit. When the engine is at TDC the cam locks will easily slide into place. If you simply try to insert them any other place than TDC... they literally won't fit and you'll need to damage the cam locks to insert them. This is because the timing belt is designed to walk, it either advances or drops a tooth every two spins of the engine. I can't remember which is correct. It belt walks to limit the belt always landing on the exact same tooth during every revolution to limit excess wear. This is why you MUST forget the timing marks on the belt after you start timing the engine.

IF you take to time to find TDC, lock the cams at that point... you will have no trouble installing cam locks, removing and installing a new timing belt.

There are two TDC marks on the belts meant to be used with different engines. So be sure to start on the correct color mark on the belt. I don't remember which color is correct, but you will easily figure it out as you start threading the belt counter clockwise around the various pulleys. You'll have to figure that out by yourself. If you start at the bottom and align the belt to the TDC mark on the sprocket, and then continue counter clockwise around replacing idliers etc... and installing the belt... it will line up perfectly. I wrote about how to install tensioner in previous posts. There are many iterations you must do properly or you will have to great deal of major headaches!

If you screw up, don't attempt to slap the engine back together and try to start it because you will destroy valves. I had to take to time to fully understand everything about the timing of the Saturn engine in order to re-time our Saturn after the cams spun to rest. It's a very sinking feeling... so take your time and do it right! I was lucking enough to fix ours properly.

RJ,

Thank you for that write up. Are you suggesting that by removing the Rear Coil Pack and Spark Plugs; I can literally view the gear for TDC with my eyes (from looking down in the spark plug hole) ? Or did I not understand that correctly?

~ Best Regards,

Brandon
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Old 10-07-2020, 01:26 AM   #12
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Pulley (Locking-How?)

No, to your question. You insert a non-metallic rod or wooden towel in the spark plug hole and let is set on the piston to determine when the #1 piston is at Top Dead Center (TDC) and then use a mirror to verify the mark on the crank pulley, it will be facing straight down at TDC.

At TDC the cam locking tools will exactly fit to lock the cams, providing the engine is perfectly in tune. This technique allows you to change the timing belt and keep the engine exactly timed as it was before you started. Replace the idlers and the tensioner to remove old belt and route the new timing belt aligning the belt marks with the engine timing marks found on the plastic cam cover. Now place a paint pen mark where the TDC is on the crank sprocket, cam marks and plastic cam cover marks. This helps because you will need to spin the engine 360 degrees, by hand, about 8 times to properly tension the belt between all pulleys/tensioner. Follow the manual instructions exactly to replace idlers (where to set the initial position so you can adjust the timing of each bank/cylinder, if necessary).

Most importantly, be sure to securely tighten the belt tensioner/idlers each and every time between removing the cam locks to spin the engine to adjust the slack/timing of each cylinder. The tensioner or idlers must not release while you hand turn the engine. This happened to me and all the cams jumped to their resting position i.e. slapping the pistons. If this happens it is a beotch to re-time the engine. It's possible, but difficult.

Also, don't worry when the tensioner moves as you hand turn the engine. This is completely normal. The belt will pull tight in certain places and let loose in others until you get the belt slack set properly between pulleys.

After you start the hand spinning to properly tension and time the engine... totally ignore the timing belt marks because they will never be right again for about 56 or so revolutions. This is because the belt walks as I explained previously. Only use the cam sprocket marks and the plastic cam cover marks for each cam.

Lastly, it is difficult to understand how each cam could be out of time and/or how to adjust it. After all, it is continuous belt... how can it possibly be wrong once installed? Well, the distance between each "pulley" determines the timing. The idlers actually adjust to add or subtract the distance between pulleys. The difficult part to grasp is anytime you adjust one timing mark perfectly... it affects all other timing marks. This is why you must continue to spin the engine 360 degrees (always clockwise) by hand and recheck each mark, adjust and spin again until they all match up perfectly.

Perform the adjusting in the counter clockwise direction. Lock belt at TDC on crank pulley, then time/adjust first idler the belt touches in the counter clockwise direction, then the next and the next , then the tensioner. All while the belt is locked in place at the crank shaft pulley. This is the secret in getting it right. It is complicated and worst to try to explain. It's a real joy to do! LOL
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Old 10-07-2020, 03:47 PM   #13
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Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Pulley (Locking-How?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
No, to your question. You insert a non-metallic rod or wooden towel in the spark plug hole and let is set on the piston to determine when the #1 piston is at Top Dead Center (TDC) and then use a mirror to verify the mark on the crank pulley, it will be facing straight down at TDC.

At TDC the cam locking tools will exactly fit to lock the cams, providing the engine is perfectly in tune. This technique allows you to change the timing belt and keep the engine exactly timed as it was before you started. Replace the idlers and the tensioner to remove old belt and route the new timing belt aligning the belt marks with the engine timing marks found on the plastic cam cover. Now place a paint pen mark where the TDC is on the crank sprocket, cam marks and plastic cam cover marks. This helps because you will need to spin the engine 360 degrees, by hand, about 8 times to properly tension the belt between all pulleys/tensioner. Follow the manual instructions exactly to replace idlers (where to set the initial position so you can adjust the timing of each bank/cylinder, if necessary).

Most importantly, be sure to securely tighten the belt tensioner/idlers each and every time between removing the cam locks to spin the engine to adjust the slack/timing of each cylinder. The tensioner or idlers must not release while you hand turn the engine. This happened to me and all the cams jumped to their resting position i.e. slapping the pistons. If this happens it is a beotch to re-time the engine. It's possible, but difficult.

Also, don't worry when the tensioner moves as you hand turn the engine. This is completely normal. The belt will pull tight in certain places and let loose in others until you get the belt slack set properly between pulleys.

After you start the hand spinning to properly tension and time the engine... totally ignore the timing belt marks because they will never be right again for about 56 or so revolutions. This is because the belt walks as I explained previously. Only use the cam sprocket marks and the plastic cam cover marks for each cam.

Lastly, it is difficult to understand how each cam could be out of time and/or how to adjust it. After all, it is continuous belt... how can it possibly be wrong once installed? Well, the distance between each "pulley" determines the timing. The idlers actually adjust to add or subtract the distance between pulleys. The difficult part to grasp is anytime you adjust one timing mark perfectly... it affects all other timing marks. This is why you must continue to spin the engine 360 degrees (always clockwise) by hand and recheck each mark, adjust and spin again until they all match up perfectly.

Perform the adjusting in the counter clockwise direction. Lock belt at TDC on crank pulley, then time/adjust first idler the belt touches in the counter clockwise direction, then the next and the next , then the tensioner. All while the belt is locked in place at the crank shaft pulley. This is the secret in getting it right. It is complicated and worst to try to explain. It's a real joy to do! LOL
RJ,

Turning the crankshaft clockwise without cam locks in and without loosening tensioner or pulleys or removing the timing belt; is it safe to take a digital torque wrench with the timing belt kit socket hex and move the wrench clockwise (towards the front of the car) until the two white marks that somebody prior left are lined upwards (which happen to match exactly the TDC distance in my head) when looking at the slit on the pulley to the notch on the right side of it. Does that make sense?

If this is true; and all is safe... then crank clockwise until those white marks are up (which I believe is the true timing) and then the cam locks should go in perfectly if that's true?

Thanks in advance!

~ Best Regards,

Brandon
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Old 10-07-2020, 05:20 PM   #14
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Pulley (Locking-How?)

Why would you take the chance of breaking or messing calibration up on an expensive torque wrench? Torque wrench is for one thing and one thing only, Setting proper torque on a bolt or nut. Either use a regular ratchet wrench or a breaker bar on the socket to turn it.
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Old 10-07-2020, 05:38 PM   #15
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Pulley (Locking-How?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsaturn View Post
Why would you take the chance of breaking or messing calibration up on an expensive torque wrench? Torque wrench is for one thing and one thing only, Setting proper torque on a bolt or nut. Either use a regular ratchet wrench or a breaker bar on the socket to turn it.
Dsaturn,

Thanks! I was going to ask if that could cause damage to it. I am glad you clarified. I will have to use a breaker bar to reach that far then.

Best Regards,

~ Brandon
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Old 10-07-2020, 07:29 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Pulley (Locking-How?)

You don't have to reach from the top down when there's plenty of room under the right side when the tire is removed with a jack stand supporting that side.

If spark plugs aren't removed, compression can work against you while turning the crankshaft manually for timing setup. If plugs are left in place, you'll feel resistance as each cylinder and closed valves attempt to compress air. Removing spark plugs makes manually turning the crankshaft with less effort. I didn't remove plugs and felt cylinder compression. As compression goes up too resist turning, I held pressure on the socket handle to feel compression lower to continue turning the engine over.

If you're not aware, 4-stroke engines means the crankshaft must rotate 720 degrees, two revolutions for top dead center on cylinder #1. The four camshafts turn 180 degrees for every one crankshaft revolution. This means turning the crankshaft two revolutions before top dead center is achieved when crankshaft and four camshaft timing marks are all in alignment. If you are lucky, when you're ready to turn the crankshaft, turn it until the timing mark lines up with a mark on the engine block them check all four camshafts having their timing marks aligned to their marks on the rear timing cover. If none are in alignment, you'll have to turn the crankshaft another 360 degrees, one full revolution before all timing marks come into alignment. Once you do this without removing plugs, you'll feel compression trying to prevent you from turning the engine. Your choice to leave plugs in or remove them to eliminate compression working against you.
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Old 10-07-2020, 11:07 PM   #17
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Pulley (Locking-How?)

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Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
You don't have to reach from the top down when there's plenty of room under the right side when the tire is removed with a jack stand supporting that side.

If spark plugs aren't removed, compression can work against you while turning the crankshaft manually for timing setup. If plugs are left in place, you'll feel resistance as each cylinder and closed valves attempt to compress air. Removing spark plugs makes manually turning the crankshaft with less effort. I didn't remove plugs and felt cylinder compression. As compression goes up too resist turning, I held pressure on the socket handle to feel compression lower to continue turning the engine over.

If you're not aware, 4-stroke engines means the crankshaft must rotate 720 degrees, two revolutions for top dead center on cylinder #1. The four camshafts turn 180 degrees for every one crankshaft revolution. This means turning the crankshaft two revolutions before top dead center is achieved when crankshaft and four camshaft timing marks are all in alignment. If you are lucky, when you're ready to turn the crankshaft, turn it until the timing mark lines up with a mark on the engine block them check all four camshafts having their timing marks aligned to their marks on the rear timing cover. If none are in alignment, you'll have to turn the crankshaft another 360 degrees, one full revolution before all timing marks come into alignment. Once you do this without removing plugs, you'll feel compression trying to prevent you from turning the engine. Your choice to leave plugs in or remove them to eliminate compression working against you.
fdryer,

Excellent brief! Duly noted and I most certainly will be removing the spark plugs first!

Turning the crankshaft on the passenger front tire well is safe as long as long as I do not take off the belt or change something. (The only way to line up TDC)... so I am guessing, yes.

Okay! Thanks again fdryer! This will help a ton.

~ Best Regards

Brandon
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Old 10-07-2020, 11:52 PM   #18
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Default 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Replacement - Gallery 1/7

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Old 10-07-2020, 11:54 PM   #19
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Thumbs Up 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Replacement - Gallery 2/7

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Old 10-07-2020, 11:56 PM   #20
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Thumbs Up 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Replacement - Gallery 3/7

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