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Old 04-18-2013, 09:03 PM   #21
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

You can take the cps and wave it past a screwdriver tip while measuring the output with a multimeter. Spin a gear in place while holding the cps nearby to allow it to detect teeth going by. Thinking outside the box requires understanding what you're doing and accomplishing something while accepting what you do will either answer the question or confuse things more.........................
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:25 AM   #22
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

Well this is bugging me now so I reread this thread. Did you check the 10A EIS ( electronic ignition system ) fuse in the under hood fuse box ? I was fairly sure there was another fuse that you didn't mention so I had to get off my butt and go look at my fuse box to verify.
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:22 PM   #23
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

Been busy last two days so I'm just getting back to this.

I HAD NOT checked that fuse. I got all excited and ran out in the pouring rain to check it. It was good. Oh well but it just goes to show I could very well still be missing something simple. Unfortunately I'm far from being a pro.

Other then that I checked 4 fuses in total two 30 amp under the hood and two 10 amp inside. They are all labeled ign on their respective plastic covers. Are their any other fuses which I should be checking? Tommorow I might just go and check every fuse cause well why not. When checking fuses do I have to take them out (which is what I've been doing) or is it sufficent to probe the little tabs sitting up top with the ohmeter?

I played around a bit with each cps the other day and it seemed that coming in proximity of steel caused a momentary increase in resistance. Again not definitive something of an indication.

Tommorow I'm going to start by checking continuity of all the wires going from the pcm to the icm, Then recheck all the fuses, Then maybe cps out put of ac volts?

If nothing is popping out at me at that point I'm going right back to the beginning with the basics rechecking everything being as organized about it as possible. Hopefully this rain will stop. I'll post updates. Thanks again guys.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:26 PM   #24
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

This may sound dumb, but does your chime work when you turn the key on and have the door open? The chime fuse will also prevent it from starting, at least it did on mine when I first installed my radio about 3 years ago and blew the chime fuse, which is located in the inside fuse panel.
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:30 PM   #25
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

Just checked the chime fuse and its good.

So I checked the wires going to the icm and they all appear good. I checked them unplugging the icm and pcm connectors and running a wires out of the icm connector to my multimeter and probing the pcm pin its supposed to go to.
Here's what I checked:
ICM PCM
C, EST 2-3 IN > J2B5 ORANGE WIRE
E, EST 1-4 IN > J2B7 WHITE
D, CYLINGER NO 4 SIG OUT > J4D3 BROWN/WHT

All registered virtually no resistance when probed in ohm mode.

B, BLACK/WHITE WIRE I checked and is continous to ground as its supposed to be

Pink I can only tell that it goes back to the EIS fuse but I can't tell where it goes from there. However it is continuous to that fuse and when I checked it the other day it had voltage when the key was turned to run.

I noticed this time that although the EIS fuse is good it is the wrong size. Its 20 amps instead of 10. I just remembered that when I bought the car a couple of months ago the previous owner had hotwired the cooling fan from the the fuse box so it ran all the time. I have no Idea why he did this since I've never seen the temp guage go past 1/2. Anyway I think it was wired from this EIS fuse. Its would seem this is clue to whats going on except like I said when I tested the pink wire its goes to it has voltage.
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:54 PM   #26
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

OK so here's my hairbrained theory I've been working on.

So the pin A or the pink wire in the ignition module connector appears to provide the juice for both ignition coils I tested it and it had 10volts which seemed a little low.

This pink wire goes to the IES fuse which I found to be 20 amp instead of 10 amp. If my memory is correct then when I got the car this fuse was hotwired to the cooling fan and would have therefore been drawing more amps from the wire going to it then it was designed to.

So what if during this time the wire feeding this circuit is getting slowly cooked, not enough to completely open the circuit but just so its slowly losing current carrying capacity.

So now months later even though I removed the wire jump to the cooling fan perhaps it finally degraded to the point where it can't provide enough amps for the coils to make a spark. however when I check it under "static" condition it still shows voltage because it not under load and still is kinda there.

So thats what I'm thinking right now but my understanding of electrical stuff can be hit or miss. If someone smarter/more experianced with electrical stuff could comment on this it would be awesome.

I also can't tell where the wire the feeds current to the IES goes to based on the wiring diagram I have. It just has an arrow which says hot in run or crank. I guess I'd have to take the fuse box off and just try and figure it out?
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:16 PM   #27
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

Without a wiring diagram to refer to, its difficult to troubleshoot this ignition problem but you seem to be going in the right direction.
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:21 PM   #28
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

Does the fusebox just pull apart once you take all the bolts out? Having a little trouble with that.

Also if my theory is correct would that mean the degraded connection/wire is internal to the fusebox and the fusebox itself would need replacing?
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:27 PM   #29
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

Here's the main wiring diagrams I've been referring to.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf enginecontrol p1.pdf (59.4 KB, 20 views)
File Type: pdf enginecontrol p4.pdf (49.3 KB, 13 views)
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:39 PM   #30
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

ok another dumb question does it help to take the fuses out before I take the fuse box apart. Like are the fuse pinning the top of the box to the bottom?
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:55 PM   #31
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

Perfect! Thank you! Pink should be 12v (no less) with ignition ON. ORG and WHT may be at 5v (not sure) when spark isn't needed, 0v when spark is generated. This is my initial guess with solid state ignition systems wired to use low voltage as the signal and switch for high voltage generations; the 5v is standing by while the pcm uses timing signals from the cps to determine when to turn off 5v to EST 1-4 or EST 2-3; when 5v is switched OFF, high voltage for spark is generated. Its either 5v or 12v for the low voltage control signals.

If you're checking wiring for IGN1 from EIS 10A, it would be safer to disconnect battery negative.
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Old 04-20-2013, 04:18 PM   #32
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

Ha ha cool I understand most of what you just said. I guess I should have posted those diagrams when I found them.

I have virtually no resistance from the EIS fuse to the pink wire so I'm guessing that if I'm on the right track then the problem is whatever wire or connection is supplying that fuse.

Still working on getting the fuse box apart without breaking it (assuming it does come apart the way I think it does). Hopefully If the fusebox itself is the problem then I can just use the one off my dead saturn (dead saturn is 1998 auto, temporarily (hopefully) dead saturn is 1999 5 spd)
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Old 04-20-2013, 04:50 PM   #33
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

No resistance as in an open reading, a wire break somewhere? If so then you're troubleshooting cannot be be improved on. Take your time.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:26 PM   #34
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

Ha yah probably my worst tendency is to get frantic and ADD-ish when I'm working on something. Also my electrical knowledge is so so, so I apologize if I mess up with my descriptions or terminology. I meant that the resistance was low (less then an ohm I think).

I got the part of the fuse box out that I need (the part with all the pins) It took a lot more doin then I was expecting. Anyway I started play with and trying to figure out how it works. It seems that for every set of fuse pins one side is connected to a common ground where I guess power is supplied. Anyway the EIS and a section of 6 fuses sitting around don't register any connection to ground on my multimeter. So it seems like I'm on the right track. Kinda strange that I was showing any voltage at all on the pink wire actually. I dunno.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:39 PM   #35
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

There's always something to learn when doing it yourself. Working in unfamiliar areas like wiring isn't for everyone. Fuse panels simply distribute 12v power from the battery through various fuses to protect the battery from dead shorts as well as guarding a fused circuit from pulling more current than it needs. When you described the fan circuit being wired in to the EIS line, disconnecting the wiring should still allow fused 12v to supply power to the icm when ignition is ON. Remember, wiring diagrams show where power goes but you must keep in mind sometimes wiring leaves out details. The ignition switch isn't shown in the two wiring diagrams but is mentioned at the top where its labeled as "Hot in Run or Engine On" so the ignition switch must be ON for 12v to go through the EIS fuse before supplying power to the icm.
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:39 AM   #36
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

Fuse boxes do not have grounds, they are a voltage feed ( positive ) to all the electrical components. The main feed to the fusebox is the heavy red wire coming from the battery positive cable. This main power source is then branched off to each fuse protected circuit, all of which originate in the fusebox, except for the starter.
The idiot who wired the fan to the EIS fuse should be on a "10 Most Wanted " poster
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:29 PM   #37
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

OK a little more information. After playing around with the fuse box from both the car I'm trying to fix and the dead saturn and studying wiring diagrams it seems that the EIS fuse isn't supposed to be connected to the ground of the fuse box. It goes out of two pins on the back, one goes to the icm, the other goes to the inside junction box specifically to the ign 1 fuse. I checked the resistance between the terminals for the fuse and the pins on the back and it was less then an ohm. I checked the resistance from the underhood fuse box connector to the ign 1 fuse on the inside box. Again less then an ohm. It look like the last place to check is from the ignition switch to the inside fuse box.

Question: If there was wiring or a connection where current carrying capacity was limited due to degradation would that nessecarily show itself as a higher resistance reading on my multimeter?

Unfortunatley I'm not sure I can use the fuse box from the dead 98 saturn in the 99 saturn I'm trying to fix. Its missing a lot of pins and connections for stuff like abs, air pump, and other stuff. The ignition section looks mostly the same but I'd be worried that I'd mess something up by putting it in.

I've attached the wiring diagram I've been working from.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:39 PM   #38
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

I had a feeling I was referring to it incorrectly by calling it ground.

Man this guy you have no idea. When I bought the car he dropped the price real quick from 1200 to 850 and was clearly willing to go lower but I just said ok because I didn't want to take advantage of the guy. I wish I had. I've had to fix this car so many times in the last couple months since I've bought it its unbelieveable. Half the time when I've fixed something I can see where someones been there before, made the problem worse, and then put it back together with bolts missing all over.
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Old 04-21-2013, 01:32 PM   #39
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

You seem to going in the right direction. The last post covers general electrical wiring. Follow the pink wire from ignition switch to EIS. Less than one ohm of resistance is good and should allow 12v on the ICM ( with ignition ON). It doesn't seem like a good choice to swap fuse panels around so clean up what you have and reassemble everything. With what you did and know now, 12v should be on the ICM for power. The PCM will switch EST 1-4 & EST 2-3 on/off to make high voltage spark.
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Old 04-21-2013, 07:26 PM   #40
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Default Re: 1999 Sl2 no start no spark

So after purchasing a tiny set of sockets to get the steering column covers off I tested resistance from the pink wire at the ignition switch to the ign 1 fuse. Less then an ohm. I then start reassembling everything and plugging stuff back in. I test from pink wire at the ICM connector to the pink wire at the ignition switch. Again less then an ohm.

So I put everything back together cleaning connections as I go feeling rather pessimistic about my chances of having actually solved anything. So I turn the key to run and check the voltage at the pink icm wire. 12.4 VOLTS! I climb in the car and crank it, the engine cranks but no signs of life. I get out to start pulling out the plug wires again when I noticed I forget to plug the ICM connector back in. So I plugged it in and cranked again. The engine chugged for about a second before dying. Signs of life! Crank once more and now it sounds like its spinning free with no compression like if the spark plugs are out. I pull the plugs and pour a bit of oil in each hole and replace the plugs. Crank again and now it I've got some violent banging noises. I try a few more time and it the same thing. Sound like I'm destroying my engine.

So here's the thing this is what happening right after it died and I was trying to restart it. This horrible banging sound. By the time I had towed it home all I was seeing was the no spark.

So basically I think I did all that work to get back to my original problem. I do appreciate the help though because I'm not sure I would have even been able to do that much alone.

Question: If I end up needing help with whatever this problem is should I start a new thread or continue this one since I think the spark problem is solved?

Also I guess I'll just ask does this sound like something to do with the timing chain skipping a tooth or something like that. I was thinking of popping the valve cover off and poking around.

Last edited by rjames711; 04-21-2013 at 07:37 PM.
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