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Old 10-04-2007, 04:50 PM   #1
oseberg
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Default The future of fuel economy in the US.

I thought you guys might be interested in this article.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/03/op...6bc&ei=5087%0A
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:32 PM   #2
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

This really belongs in P&C. Fortune did a review on his opinion and found many faults with his "expert" analysis. But even Fortune's review is opinion. And as opinion pieces go, it's no more precise than Tarrot cards. Hell, why don't you write your own opinion piece for the Times? It would be just as relevant.
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Old 10-04-2007, 06:16 PM   #3
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

Actually what impressed me about this article is that it agrees with the opinions of me and several co-workers over 6 months ago.

The US auto industry is where it is today due to it's lack of forward thinking, and them fighting to enact more lenient fuel economy regulations will allow them to continue to avoid the progress that would improve their competitiveness in the world.

I can't believe that they could be so ignorant that actually believe that the most profitable decision is to avoid improving their technology at all costs. There must be some other motivations here. Some sort of other goal.

By the way, what's, "P&C"?
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Old 10-04-2007, 07:39 PM   #4
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

oseberg -

Quote:
Originally Posted by oseberg View Post
Actually what impressed me about this article is that it agrees with the opinions of me and several co-workers over 6 months ago.

The US auto industry is where it is today due to it's lack of forward thinking, and them fighting to enact more lenient fuel economy regulations will allow them to continue to avoid the progress that would improve their competitiveness in the world.

I can't believe that they could be so ignorant that actually believe that the most profitable decision is to avoid improving their technology at all costs. There must be some other motivations here. Some sort of other goal.

By the way, what's, "P&C"?
Every day I can keep a factory churning out product X is a day I don't have to spend R&D and factory retooling for product Y. It's great for short term quarterly profits, but it is bad in the long term because you're giving (foreign) competition the oppurtunity to catch up and surpass you!!!!!!!!

Yeah, what does P&C mean?!?!?!?

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Old 10-04-2007, 08:05 PM   #5
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

If politicians really feel we need better fuel economy, then tax fuel to encourage consumers to buy higher mileage cars and drive less.
Passing mileage standards on manufacturers is a gutless way to legislate.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:05 PM   #6
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

You do not need a article to answer this, simply go to dealers and look at how cars are getting bigger and they are still stuck on pushing SUV's. Detroit is REALLY hung up on them. They even killed of the econobox line of Saturn models when they need them more than ever today. The are trying to morph Saturn into a SUV company.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:41 PM   #7
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Murray View Post
If politicians really feel we need better fuel economy, then tax fuel to encourage consumers to buy higher mileage cars and drive less.
Passing mileage standards on manufacturers is a gutless way to legislate.
my thoughts exactly. when gasoline reached $3 per gallon, sales of trucks and SUV's dropped. look at what folks are driving in countries where gasoline costs significantly more than ours.
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Old 10-04-2007, 11:26 PM   #8
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eRic 02sc2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Murray View Post
If politicians really feel we need better fuel economy, then tax fuel to encourage consumers to buy higher mileage cars and drive less.
Passing mileage standards on manufacturers is a gutless way to legislate.
my thoughts exactly. when gasoline reached $3 per gallon, sales of trucks and SUV's dropped. look at what folks are driving in countries where gasoline costs significantly more than ours.
How about adding a $5/gallon gas tax, then turn around and use half of it to reduce our income taxes, and the other half to provide free health care to everyone in the US? And with whatever'ss left, subsidize the most efficient vehicles in order to reduce their initial cost.

It'll never happen, but I think it's a great idea.
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Old 10-05-2007, 01:17 AM   #9
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

The Gov't already taxes our gas. The Gov't also subsidizes our fuel too - ethanol.

It was noticeable how many of the masses in my area slowed down close to the speed limits when prices jumped a couple of years ago from the low $1 to the high $2's. But now I see most of the masses don't care about it anymore... probably because they stopped paying their sub-prime mortgages?

P&C? Hmmm... Perhaps it's "Polls and Cuestions?"
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Old 10-05-2007, 06:36 AM   #10
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oseberg View Post
How about adding a $5/gallon gas tax, then turn around and use half of it to reduce our income taxes, and the other half to provide free health care to everyone in the US? And with whatever'ss left, subsidize the most efficient vehicles in order to reduce their initial cost.

It'll never happen, but I think it's a great idea.
Your right, a gas tax makes too much sense to ever be used.
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:54 AM   #11
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

Sooo, whats more important. The MPG of a vehicle or how much it pollutes the enviorment? Because better MPG doesnt mean it doesnt pollute.

A good example are my two vehicles. A 1995 Saturn SL2 and 2001 Suburban. The Saturn gets 27mpg and the Suburban gets 23mpg, both under the same driving conditions. While the Suburban costs me three cents a mile more to drive, it pollutes the enviorment considerably less. Both vehicles run great and pass strict California emissons testing. Yet the four cylinder Saturn is way more harmfull to the enviorment.
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Old 10-05-2007, 12:15 PM   #12
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

What's your secret for getting 23MPG out of a Suburban?
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Old 10-05-2007, 12:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

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What's your secret for getting 23MPG out of a Suburban?

He drives it only downhill, with a tail wind.
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Old 10-05-2007, 12:37 PM   #14
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

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What's your secret for getting 23MPG out of a Suburban?
I had a performance tune done to my PCM last year. As with most GM vehicles, the programming from the factory has the Suburban running pig rich. Just like our Saturns. Along with changing the shift patterns, optional electric fan output turned on and a few other things, the fuel mixture was leaned out a bit.
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Old 10-05-2007, 02:00 PM   #15
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Saturn View Post
Sooo, whats more important. The MPG of a vehicle or how much it pollutes the enviorment? Because better MPG doesnt mean it doesnt pollute.

A good example are my two vehicles. A 1995 Saturn SL2 and 2001 Suburban. The Saturn gets 27mpg and the Suburban gets 23mpg, both under the same driving conditions. While the Suburban costs me three cents a mile more to drive, it pollutes the enviorment considerably less. Both vehicles run great and pass strict California emissons testing. Yet the four cylinder Saturn is way more harmfull to the enviorment.
It depends on how you define pollution because the suburban emits a lot more CO2 and will only maybe do 23 under the very best of conditions and not the norm and it will do worse on it s best day than Saturn will do on its worst day.
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Old 10-05-2007, 03:15 PM   #16
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

Quote:
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the fuel mixture was leaned out a bit.
which makes more NOx......
they run at stoich for the best compromise of HC & NOx don't they?
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Old 10-05-2007, 04:06 PM   #17
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

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which makes more NOx......
they run at stoich for the best compromise of HC & NOx don't they?
I have no idea. All I know is that after I installed the tuned PCM, MPG went up, miles traveled in between fill ups went up, is accelerates like a bat outta hell, and emissions output is cleaner than my Saturn. Both required emissions testing this year.

My parents 2002 Tahe is due for its first emissions test this summer. It'll be interesting to see how it does compared to my Suburban.
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Old 10-05-2007, 04:20 PM   #18
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Murray View Post
If politicians really feel we need better fuel economy, then tax fuel to encourage consumers to buy higher mileage cars and drive less.
Passing mileage standards on manufacturers is a gutless way to legislate.
Apparently politicians (both parties) *don't* feel we need better fuel economy. (Actions speak louder than words.) They won't feel that way until some huge multi-billion-dollar lobby comes along for better fuel economy, and begins contributing to their campaigns.

It seems like money from entrenched interests influence policy on their behalf, and the "industries of tomorrow" are likely to get developed somewhere else. I don't know how we change that, but I hope it can change.
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Old 10-06-2007, 11:12 AM   #19
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

This anti-NOx thing is a cover for rich running, gas guzzling, "clean" cars. The geo metro pulled in 50 MPG in the early 1990s and was pretty clean, smog-wise. Would take 25 of them or whatever to equal a 1968 musclecar.

Now chevy's econobox is a 37 mpg, outsourced daewoo aveo.

They can't make a high strung, low displacement, strung-out one-point-something liter motor anymore it seems because it runs so hot and lean a little too much NOx leaks out. Same with passenger car diesels. (Incidentally all diesel pickups start at 3/4 ton for looser standards, so many former half ton buyers step up for the diesel.)

Despite that it makes much less CO2.

It's all a racket, to burn more gas, and a main motivator for me to keep my saturns all in tune, with parts stashed away, to stick it to the man.
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Old 10-06-2007, 12:23 PM   #20
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Default Re: The future of fuel economy in the US.

I love NY Times journalists; the language they use is so neutral. And they're also experts in every field they write about.

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