SaturnFans.com
saturnfans.com - classifieds - forums


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn L-Series > L-Series Tech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-27-2022, 12:55 PM   #21
02LW300
Junior Member
02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: Illinois
Posts: 15

2002 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
1996 SW2
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

Quote:
Originally Posted by 02 LW300 View Post
Good name, I will just hang out at the Saturn forum from now on.
Andy
Wow I was surprised to find that username available but didn’t think to put a space in there.
02LW300 is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 02-27-2022, 01:07 PM   #22
02LW300
Junior Member
02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: Illinois
Posts: 15

2002 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
1996 SW2
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

Hey guys, this is LUXWAG. I was unable to post so I made a new username.

So here’s where I’m at today

-engine turns over, no start, service wrench light and service engine soon light, fuel gauge shows Empty, OBD2 scanner won’t link
-jumping fuel pump relay makes fuel pump work and I get 41 PSI fuel pressure at fuel rail test port but still doesn’t start/run
-spraying starting fluid in throttle body does not get car to start/run.
-battery is new and fully charged
-tried starting with ECT disconnected and doesn’t start/run
-security is off and doesn’t blink when starting

So I know
-Fuel pump works but only when bypassing relay
-not getting spark or fuel on startup
-OBD2 port won’t link to reader


Any ideas here? Are there any sensors going bad that would cause these symptoms? It’s like the ECM is preventing the ignition cycle?
02LW300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2022, 04:17 PM   #23
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 45,745
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

Fuel pressure fine, starting fluid fails to get the engine firing up suggests a spark issue except for one other problem that kills the entire EFI system if it doesn't operate, - the crank sensor. The ecm cannot run the EFI system (fuel pump, generate spark and pulse injectors) if the crank sensor failed. It's located next to the oil filter, mounted with one torx bolt. A three wire sensor. The connection is below the right side of the main intake manifold. If you have a digital multimeter, measure it for resistance. Two wires should measure between 700-1200 ohms. Its sole job is to detect crankshaft timing notches and generate a clock signal for the ecm. The ecm requires a crank sensor to run. When starting and engine running, the crank sensor continually outputs precise timing signals to allow the ecm to operate. One tell tale indicator would be a lack of engine rpm on the tach while starting. Approximately 250 rpm should be seen on the tach while starting.
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2022, 04:32 PM   #24
02LW300
Junior Member
02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: Illinois
Posts: 15

2002 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
1996 SW2
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

Well when I try to start the car, the tach doesn’t move at all.

I’m going to see if the auto parts store has the crank position sensor and swap it out.
02LW300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2022, 05:09 PM   #25
02LW300
Junior Member
02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: Illinois
Posts: 15

2002 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
1996 SW2
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

I pulled the crank position sensor and it has no resistance…could this be it?!!!
02LW300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2022, 05:38 PM   #26
02LW300
Junior Member
02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: Illinois
Posts: 15

2002 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
1996 SW2
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

Well I’m dumb…I didn’t test the correct way. It turns out the crank position sensor has 874 ohms. So that checks out, but why don’t I get any RPMs when I try to start?

What else should I look for?
02LW300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2022, 09:10 PM   #27
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 45,745
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

Is 874 ohms measured on the original crank sensor or new one? Please be specific as no one is standing next to you. If you measured resistance on the original one, rap it against a work bench a few times, a crude form of engine vibration then measure resistance. You might have to immerse it in boiling water and measure resistance again (as in engine heat).
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2022, 09:50 PM   #28
02LW300
Junior Member
02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: Illinois
Posts: 15

2002 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
1996 SW2
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

874 ohms was on original crank sensor.
02LW300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2022, 09:48 AM   #29
lrbraner
Member
lrbraner is a jewel in the roughlrbraner is a jewel in the roughlrbraner is a jewel in the roughlrbraner is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Ft. Wayne, IN
Posts: 404

2002 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
2003 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

Quote:
Originally Posted by 02LW300 View Post
Well when I try to start the car, the tach doesn’t move at all.

I’m going to see if the auto parts store has the crank position sensor and swap it out.
My experience has been that if the crank position sensor is bad, the engine will not turn over. Will not do anything.
...
2002 L300 Sedan
2003 LW300 Wagon
2005 L300 Sedan
lrbraner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2022, 10:13 AM   #30
02LW300
Junior Member
02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: Illinois
Posts: 15

2002 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
1996 SW2
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

Back to talking about the security light…

Is the security light (the yellow one that says SECURITY on dash) supposed to come on after turning key to RUN then shut off a few seconds later?

When cranking the engine, the security light does not flash.
02LW300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2022, 05:11 PM   #31
Rj 2000 LS2
Advanced Member
Rj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really nice
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NE Wisconsin
Posts: 699

2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

Don't rely on a ohm's test to determine crank position sensor is good or not. A bad one will simply not provide clocking to the ECM and therefore no start. The crank position sensor provides the clock to fire the spark plugs. It is a signal not the actual spark. Don't confuse the two.

I thought you sprayed started fluid in the intake and it fired? Or is that another thread? If it fired with starter fluid, it's got spark. However, a CPS can be intermittent if the end is covered in metal pieces. Make sure the crank position sensor is very clean when you install it.

if the code reader can not communicate with the key turned to RUN, perhaps the key switch is bad. Can you turn ON your radio with the key switch ON?

Last edited by Rj 2000 LS2; 02-28-2022 at 05:16 PM. Reason: Add items
Rj 2000 LS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2022, 05:21 PM   #32
Rj 2000 LS2
Advanced Member
Rj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really nice
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NE Wisconsin
Posts: 699

2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrbraner View Post
My experience has been that if the crank position sensor is bad, the engine will not turn over. Will not do anything.
The engine will rotate but will not start if the crank position sensor is bad. I am thinking the key switch is not really switching the RUN wire to ON, therefore gauges don't work and the ODBII device can not connect because nothing has power. This would also explain the no start issue. I really don't know how to test or diagnose the key switch functions. But, it makes sense why it is not working properly and all the other items are chasing tails.

There must be a method to test the key switch to determine if the power is switched ON to all modules.
Rj 2000 LS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2022, 05:57 PM   #33
02LW300
Junior Member
02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: Illinois
Posts: 15

2002 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
1996 SW2
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

So I put a new crank position sensor in and it didn’t change anything.

I have a new BCM that is being programmed on Thursday so hopefully that solves the problem.
02LW300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2022, 06:18 PM   #34
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 45,745
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

Quote:
Originally Posted by 02LW300 View Post
Back to talking about the security light…

Is the security light (the yellow one that says SECURITY on dash) supposed to come on after turning key to RUN then shut off a few seconds later?

When cranking the engine, the security light does not flash.
Yes, security is the yellow indicator. Apparently, L300s like mine, have car symbol with a large padlock at the 6'oclock position in the tach.

When turning on ignition, GMs Passlock always performs a security check, starting with the sensors detecting turning the ignition switch, sending signals to the bcm. When the bcm senses the correct signals, it sends a fuel password to the ecm to allow injector operation and turns off security whether starting or not. If an incorrect signal is detected then the bcm sends a different password to the ecm. The ecm then disables injector operation. Security with turn on them turn off during starting. All indicators are turned on as part of lamp tests then turn off at ignition on time before or during starting. The battery, oil and seat belt indicators are left on until the engine's started. Seat belt light turns off when buckling in.

With security indicator off while starting, Passlock (bcm controlled) is disabled, not interfering with ecm/EFI operation. With 874 ohms on the original crank sensor, it's fine.

Has anyone made repairs to this engine? Engine ground, between battery negative to chassis then chassis to engine block may need to be checked. The ecm should be that square 5" x 5" thing sitting on driver's side of the engine with two large multiple pin connectors. The ecm is grounded by mounting bolts to the engine. One member dime years ago had problems starting until he mentioned his ecm was loosely mounted with one bolt and not secured. Once this was mentioned, replacing the missing bolts to securely mount the ecm to engine block made all his problems disappear.

Worse case scenario would be removing upper intake manifold system to remove the front ignition coil pack and spark plugs, examining plugs soaked in fuel (or not), reconnecting plugs to ignition coil pack, coil pack reconnected to wiring and plug bases wired to engine block. Have someone start while you observe for spark on all the 3 plugs to verify spark occurring.
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2022, 09:05 PM   #35
lrbraner
Member
lrbraner is a jewel in the roughlrbraner is a jewel in the roughlrbraner is a jewel in the roughlrbraner is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Ft. Wayne, IN
Posts: 404

2002 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
2003 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
The engine will rotate but will not start if the crank position sensor is bad. I am thinking the key switch is not really switching the RUN wire to ON, therefore gauges don't work and the ODBII device can not connect because nothing has power. This would also explain the no start issue. I really don't know how to test or diagnose the key switch functions. But, it makes sense why it is not working properly and all the other items are chasing tails.

There must be a method to test the key switch to determine if the power is switched ON to all modules.
That has not been my experience.
...
2002 L300 Sedan
2003 LW300 Wagon
2005 L300 Sedan
lrbraner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2022, 10:50 AM   #36
02LW300
Junior Member
02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: Illinois
Posts: 15

2002 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
1996 SW2
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

There has been no repairs made to engine. I’ll have to check the engine ground and see how it looks. The ECM has all four bolts and they are tight.

I think I’ll test the coil pack for spark and see what happens.

I’m having the car towed to a GM dealer to get a new BCM programmed on Thursday.

Last edited by 02LW300; 03-01-2022 at 10:58 AM.
02LW300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2022, 11:56 AM   #37
02LW300
Junior Member
02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: Illinois
Posts: 15

2002 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
1996 SW2
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

I was looking at the starting and charging system electrical diagram and noticed that there is a red wire coming from the alternator to the ECM. I’m assuming that this is how the ecm gets power? And would a bad alternator mess with the ecm?

I’m going to check the wires on the alternator tonight and see what they look like.
02LW300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2022, 01:50 PM   #38
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 45,745
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

GM service manual diagrams show two red wires; a fusible link wire and a signal wire from the ecm. The ecm (red) wire is not power. It's a turn on signal from the ecm to command the alternator to generate power.

When ignition switch is turned on, this wire is grounded internally in the regulator circuit telling the ecm to send a low battery signal to the bcm to turn on the battery light. When the engine's running, the solid state regulator opens this circuit, turning off the battery light. This red wire does not power the alternator.

The fusible link wire powers the alternator at all times (HOT), coming from the starter terminal where battery (red) is connected. The alternator's solid state regulator determines when to initiate output.
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2022, 02:42 PM   #39
Rj 2000 LS2
Advanced Member
Rj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really nice
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NE Wisconsin
Posts: 699

2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrbraner View Post
That has not been my experience.
A defective CPS can't disable to the starter from spinning the engine. The CPS strictly is a signal generator to provide clocking signals used to time the engine. It's the chicken and the egg theory, no spin means no clocking and no start.

Hey, that makes me think... perhaps the timing belt is broken? What does the engine sound like while rotating during attempted start?
Rj 2000 LS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2022, 03:33 PM   #40
02LW300
Junior Member
02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough02LW300 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: Illinois
Posts: 15

2002 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
1996 SW2
Default Re: 02 LW300 V6 Fuel Pump and OBD2 Trouble

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
A defective CPS can't disable to the starter from spinning the engine. The CPS strictly is a signal generator to provide clocking signals used to time the engine. It's the chicken and the egg theory, no spin means no clocking and no start.

Hey, that makes me think... perhaps the timing belt is broken? What does the engine sound like while rotating during attempted start?


It sounds like it should, but how would I check the timing belt? Do I have to take the cover all the way off?

What would a broken timing belt sound like?
02LW300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2001 LW300 - Backseat and fuel pump question Red97sc2 L-Series Tech 6 07-02-2019 08:02 PM
01 L100 Fuel pump trouble 444matt L-Series Tech 3 12-29-2016 02:48 PM
LW300 Fuel Pump Paul Bunyon L-Series Tech 1 11-10-2011 07:02 PM
Fuel pump replacement for LW300 middleman L-Series Tech 1 01-19-2010 11:48 PM
Unsteady idle, trouble starting - fuel pump regulator? brian75 S-Series General 4 07-23-2007 04:24 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:26 AM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.