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Old 06-10-2011, 12:46 PM   #1
RobertGary1
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Default timing cover still not coming out

Last night I tried a new, virgin, Craftsman 10mm socket with my pocket 75 ft/lb impact on some of the timing cover bolts. Still no movement. I let it hammer for 20 seconds or so hoping that it would break through the glue but it never did. I hesitate to use my full sized impact on those small bolts. Not sure where to go from here. I could try using the torch again and just do a better job of having the wrench close enough to avoid the block from sinking the heat away from the bolt before I can get to it. Otherwise, I think I'm running out of ideas.

-Robert
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Old 06-10-2011, 02:21 PM   #2
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

I am no expert at this but I like to think I understand the physics of what is going on.

The heat will swell the diameter of the bolt tighter than the hole can catch up making it tighter to turn out. On the other hand, the heat may break the tension of the thread bond since it will expand first.

So I would try heat, cool off, heat, then cool off to try and break the tension in the threads. Tap the head lightly with light weight hammer during the cool process.

You may also want to consider an ice cube the head of the bolt to reverse the bolt swelling effect before trying to turn. Some clowns may pop up here claiming you will ruin your engine with the ice cube . I would pay them no mind.
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Old 06-10-2011, 02:23 PM   #3
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehunter View Post
I am no expert at this but I like to think I understand the physics of what is going on.

The heat will swell the diameter of the bolt tighter than the hole can catch up making it tighter to turn out. On the other hand, the heat may break the tension of the thread bond since it will expand first.

So I would try heat, cool off, heat, then cool off to try and break the tension in the threads. Tap the head lightly with light weight hammer during the cool process.

You may also want to consider an ice cube the head of the bolt to reverse the bolt swelling effect before trying to turn. Some clowns may pop up here claiming you will ruin your engine with the ice cube . I would pay them no mind.
I've heard of the technique you described, but isn't that more of a rusted bolt technique? I"m guessing this is more of an issue with the factory glue and that the heat on the bolt may temporarily unbond the glue. ???? Just a guess.

-Robert
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Old 06-10-2011, 02:23 PM   #4
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

What are you doing anyway? I thought you did your valve seams already.
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Old 06-10-2011, 02:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertGary1 View Post
I've heard of the technique you described, but isn't that more of a rusted bolt technique? I"m guessing this is more of an issue with the factory glue and that the heat on the bolt may temporarily unbond the glue. ???? Just a guess.

-Robert
If it is a glue issue, maybe a some kind of solvent mixed with a pbblaster might sink into the area.

Glue or not, I think it would expand/contract like anything else.
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Old 06-10-2011, 03:21 PM   #6
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehunter View Post
What are you doing anyway? I thought you did your valve seams already.
I did but the cam fixture let the spockets droop so I need to reset the chain tenson in order to reinstall the exhaust cam.
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Old 06-10-2011, 03:35 PM   #7
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1998 SC2
Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

Locktite releases at 300f or so. The bolt may be held by aluminum oxide and that is jarred loose by tapping on the head. Box end wrench and sharp rap with a steel hammer tends to get them loose also.

Which bolt is it?
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Old 06-10-2011, 04:34 PM   #8
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Locktite releases at 300f or so. The bolt may be held by aluminum oxide and that is jarred loose by tapping on the head. Box end wrench and sharp rap with a steel hammer tends to get them loose also.

Which bolt is it?
Actually, I haven't tried the hitting with the hammer yet. I kind of assumed the impact was doing that, but perhaps a good hard wrap on the head would help. If the issue was Loctite would it rebind after I removed the heat?

I'm going after bolt #11 in the pic just because its the easist.
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Old 06-10-2011, 04:59 PM   #9
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

Need:
Gloves
Bar
Socket

All I've ever used (other then maybe the gloves, not 100% those tools but my box has the same things...maybe a shorter bar though).
Don't have access to a torch and the gloves are freaking awesome for softening blows on sharp aluminum...
...
The proper way to fix a S-Series automatic is to replace it with a manual
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:24 PM   #10
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

Try another bolt. I take them of with an air ratchet. Have to yank on it as the air ratchet will not break them free. Suspect you are being too gentle.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:43 PM   #11
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Try another bolt. I take them of with an air ratchet. Have to yank on it as the air ratchet will not break them free. Suspect you are being too gentle.
Ok, I can try my air ratchet. I figured an air ratchet wouldn't have enough torque to do the job though. I'm certainly trying to strip the bolt off in the block. Unfortunately, I don't have a 6pt box end so I'm stuck just using my new Craftsman socket (I couldn't find anywhere local to buy a 6pt box end).

-Robert
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Old 06-10-2011, 08:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

I just yank on the ratchet when I hit the air and they come out. They are in there tight. I also would try another bolt.
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:18 PM   #13
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

When a cylinder is heated, its inside area increases. As all of the surrounding material is expanding, the material will push against itself around the circumference of the cylinder and increase that circumference. It will not 'swell' into the cylinder, unless it has nowhere else to go, and, most likely, is a soft material that can swell.

As a bolt hole is a grooved cylinder, it will behave like a cylinder. As aluminum expands much faster than steel, if you heat the bolt hole, it will expand in circumference much more quickly than the bolt, and the bolt will be freed. ...Plus the Locktite lets loose at 300 degrees, as someone else mentioned.
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:34 PM   #14
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

If you don't have a 6pt socket be square on the ratchet when you jerk on it.

A good air ratchet is a knuckle buster. When the bolt gets tight it usually rams forward before you can release the air lever.
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:51 PM   #15
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

Quote:
Originally Posted by td1238 View Post
When a cylinder is heated, its inside area increases. As all of the surrounding material is expanding, the material will push against itself around the circumference of the cylinder and increase that circumference. It will not 'swell' into the cylinder, unless it has nowhere else to go, and, most likely, is a soft material that can swell.

As a bolt hole is a grooved cylinder, it will behave like a cylinder. As aluminum expands much faster than steel, if you heat the bolt hole, it will expand in circumference much more quickly than the bolt, and the bolt will be freed. ...Plus the Locktite lets loose at 300 degrees, as someone else mentioned.
By heating the bolt, it begins to swell first, before the material around it, and not in exact unison with the block. The bolt leads the way of the heat transfer. What you say is true but only when heating the bolt and block together and they are made of the same material. In this case one is steel and the other aluminum so different dynamics apply.
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Old 06-10-2011, 11:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

...Perhaps if you can heat the area around the bolt more than the bolt itself.

I did not have difficulty removing my timing chain cover bolts, but I did have a bit of difficulty removing some of the bell housing bolts, and there was corrosion present there.

The heating theory is what aids in oxygen sensor removal, but as was said, heating the bolt directly might not be the right idea, though if aluminum expands more than steel, once the heat has been distributed and evened out somewhat, perhaps things will loosen up a bit. In any case the heat will help melt the Locktite and help move things around a bit (by expansion and contraction), which will help break apart any corrosion that may be binding things together.
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Old 06-11-2011, 12:48 AM   #17
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertGary1 View Post
I've heard of the technique you described, but isn't that more of a rusted bolt technique? I"m guessing this is more of an issue with the factory glue and that the heat on the bolt may temporarily unbond the glue. ???? Just a guess.
I always figured it's the metallurgical mojo that happens between dissimilar metals like the steel bolts and the aluminum block and head. But that's not the same as simple rust (oxidation). Not sure what that implies wrt. the best treatment; the real answer woulda been anti-seize compound on the threads at initial assembly.
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Old 06-11-2011, 11:41 AM   #18
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

The factory uses Locktite, which is the opposite of anti-seize. This is used in place of lock washers, and seems to be very effective. As you cannot torque into aluminum like you can with cast iron, this is especially important. Also, aluminum expands much more than steel or cast iron, and so the bolt hole will not expand at the same rate as the bolt, and you might wind up with loose bolts if the Locktite is not used. Only a small dribble is necessary, but the factory may have gone overboard on a few bolts, or perhaps there is corrosion present.
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Old 06-11-2011, 12:45 PM   #19
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Default Re: timing cover still not coming out

Locktite was used for a couple of reasons, lubrication on assembly, aluminum oxidation-bolt rusting prevention, and last holding. The aluminum corrosion/oxidation will lock a steel bolt into aluminum tight enough to end up ripping the threads out of the aluminum if exposed to air after assembly. Antiseize will adequately seal out oxygen and aid in eventual removal. The thread engagement and aluminum characteristics are adequate to hold the fastener without the mandatory use of locktite when using the specified torque specs.

For further enlightenment please refer to Machinery's Handbook. http://new.industrialpress.com/
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