L81 Timing belt markings?

[flappytango]

Hi,

well just been working on the water pump and timing bet of my 2003.

A question about aligning the timing belt markings with timing marks notches.

Will they ever line up? I have turned the crank quite a bit.. When the belt markings line up with the rear timing belt cover none of my cam timing notches align with the cover markings and the crank is not at TDC.

Do i just keep turning or do i just try to get the cam sprockets marks to line up with the cover when at TDC and then mark the belt and continue.

im going to search the forums some more and reread the alldata instruction for know.

thanks

[Chazberry]

The belt markings are only for initial positioning. After 2 revolutions of the Crank (720°) the Cam marks should be back in line with the cover notches. Where the belt markings wind up is irrelevant.

[flappytango]

thanks,

i get it now... i didn't hit me until now that the marks on the belt were only for the initial positioning and that that alignment (belt marks to crank and cam marks) will be lost after belt rotation.

[flappytango]

What about the statement “ensure that the alignment of the crankshaft is not 180 degrees off” If your crank timing mark is at 6 o’clock you are at TDC. Simple as that right?

And just a sanity check..
Theoretically you do not need marks on your timing belt. For instance if you were building your engine you would set heads on with crank at #1 cylinder 60 degrees BTDC and then rotate cams to TDC position and lock into place. Then put the crank at TDC and install your belt followed by adjustment of tensioners to fine tune the timing marks and tension. Right?

Finally, is their a 60 degree timing mark? Or do you just measure the angle referenced versus 6 o'clock? I ask this because the ALLDATA figure does not look like 60 degrees..

Thanks

[Chazberry]

Originally Posted by flappytango

What about the statement “ensure that the alignment of the crankshaft is not 180 degrees off” If your crank timing mark is at 6 o’clock you are at TDC. Simple as that right?

I think so. If the notch on the block is at 6:00, why would you put the Crank mark at 12:00 (???)

Originally Posted by flappytango

And just a sanity check..
Theoretically you do not need marks on your timing belt. For instance if you were building your engine you would set heads on with crank at #1 cylinder 60 degrees BTDC and then rotate cams to TDC position and lock into place. Then put the crank at TDC and install your belt followed by adjustment of tensioners to fine tune the timing marks and tension. Right?

You might be right, but being that this was my first Timing Belt job on an interference engine, the belt marks gave me some comfort level. Also, I think you want the right number of belt teeth between all the marks. I'm thinking with the adjustability of the Tensioner, you could have the marks lined up, but still be off a tooth.

Originally Posted by flappytango

Finally, is their a 60 degree timing mark? Or do you just measure the angle referenced versus 6 o'clock? I ask this because the ALLDATA figure does not look like 60 degrees.

I don't know what this 60° stuff is about. There are some other marks on the Cam Sprockets (?).

[flappytango]

I don't have a lower eccentric Idler like in the picture above. So now in the middle of my belt job i am having a bit of trouble getting 3+4 cams lined up to my satisfaction. I'm sure that the extra adjustable idler would help. One more reason to get the full kit...

For anyone contemplating this job here is a link to easy to follow instructions for replacing the timing belt on the Ecotec V6 (L81). It is from the UK aimed at Vauxhall / Opel owners.

http://www.v6calibra.net/docs/Sealy%...ol%20vs130.pdf

It assumes you have an adjustable lower idler.

[Chazberry]

Originally Posted by flappytango

I don't have a lower eccentric Idler like in the picture above. So now in the middle of my belt job i am having a bit of trouble getting 3+4 cams lined up to my satisfaction. I'm sure that the extra adjustable idler would help.

I might be missing something. If your top idler has an eccentric, why are you having trouble getting Cams 3 & 4 where you want them? Once Cams 3 & 4 are lined up, I could understand how a non-adjustable lower idler would make it hard to get the Crank mark fine tuned, but I don't understand why it would affect Cams 3 & 4.

[flappytango]

Originally Posted by Chazberry

I might be missing something. If your top idler has an eccentric, why are you having trouble getting Cams 3 & 4 where you want them? Once Cams 3 & 4 are lined up, I could understand how a non-adjustable lower idler would make it hard to get the Crank mark fine tuned, but I don't understand why it would affect Cams 3 & 4.

Without the lower adjustable idler cams 3+4 are only set by the belt tooth position (and overall belt tension) relative to the crank (see section 3.4 of the above document) it details this. The upper idler adjusts cams is used to adjust cams 1+2.
The Alldata procedure I have says install belt and verify that 3+4 are correct. It does not have a method for correcting them because it assume non adjustable lower idler.

After all my work i wanted perfect timing but I just made a big deal nothing. With the crank and cams 1+2 set at tdc cams 3+4 are slightly retarded (about 2mm left of the marks).

Car started up easily and is running just fine .

[Chazberry]

Originally Posted by flappytango

Car started up easily and is running just fine .

Congrats on 'mission accomplished'!
Isn't everything easy once you know how?

[MoparNut]

Originally Posted by flappytango

After all my work i wanted perfect timing but I just made a big deal nothing. With the crank and cams 1+2 set at tdc cams 3+4 are slightly retarded (about 2mm left of the marks).

Car started up easily and is running just fine .

I'm glad it's running well, but when doing a 3.0 without the proper tools unless you are extremely lucky the timing will probably still be off a bit, as you stated. The marks on the cover are for rough estimate only. The marks on the sprockets must align with the cam checking gauge made by SPX. The proper timing belt alignment tool kit is absolutely essential for the L81 motor-it is very, very precise. In fact, I just had to redo a belt that a local corner garage messed up. They managed to get the front bank lined up pretty close, but the rear was off 1 1/2 teeth. Lucky for them they did not bend anything, but they stripped out the tensioner locknut and 5mm hex.

Well, like I said, I hope you are in the very lucky 1%

[flappytango]

quote
"...In fact, I just had to redo a belt that a local corner garage messed up. They managed to get the front bank lined up pretty close, but the rear was off 1 1/2 teeth"

Well i kind of whish i had the tools but i went mostly by what i was reading here on the forums... it seems like several have done the cam without the special tools.

the good thing is that 3+4 have to be very close to factory because my belt is in the same position (teeth wise) and i am convinced that there is no way to addjust 3+4 relative to the crank without the eccentric lower idler.

maybe i will see if i can get the tools from the UK (i live in sweden now) or maybe i can find it for the saab application here in sweeden and go back in when i do my plugs and tstat. If i do ill add the lower idler too.

for now i will monitor my fuel mileage to get some indication on how effiecient its running. From the seat of the pants it seems to be running stronger but that may be my imagination.

ps i would have rented the tools if i still lived in the US.

[Chazberry]

Originally Posted by MoparNut

I'm glad it's running well, but when doing a 3.0 without the proper tools unless you are extremely lucky the timing will probably still be off a bit, as you stated. The marks on the cover are for rough estimate only. The marks on the sprockets must align with the cam checking gauge made by SPX. The proper timing belt alignment tool kit is absolutely essential for the L81 motor-it is very, very precise. In fact, I just had to redo a belt that a local corner garage messed up. They managed to get the front bank lined up pretty close, but the rear was off 1 1/2 teeth. Lucky for them they did not bend anything, but they stripped out the tensioner locknut and 5mm hex.

Well, like I said, I hope you are in the very lucky 1%

No offense Mo, but I think this is a load of hogwash. As long as you manage to get a new belt installed - by whatever method - and you get the same number of teeth between all the timing marks as you had with the old belt, the job won't be any less precise than if you used all those bogus special tools.

Someone over in the S-series Forum paid $300 for this spanner wrench. It's a rip-off at $172.44 . . .
http://www.handsontools.com/Kent-Moo...-_p_45871.html
The thing is worth maybe $25. I've come to the conclusion J-tools are a racket - at least in many cases.

[MoparNut]

I'd agree in many cases the special tool is not absolutely necessary. In some it simply makes the job go more smoothly, in some the task cannot be completed without the right tool. Often, it is matter of which will take more time: searching the shop for the correct J-tool that we may or may not have, or slogging through it without?

In the case of the L81 timing belt tool kit, if I had the money it is one of the few tools I would buy for myself, as it makes the whole job go much faster, easier and you have the peace of mind that it is assembled correctly before putting it all back together and firing the engine.

[Chazberry]

Originally Posted by MoparNut

In the case of the L81 timing belt tool kit, if I had the money it is one of the few tools I would buy for myself, as it makes the whole job go much faster, easier and you have the peace of mind that it is assembled correctly before putting it all back together and firing the engine.

Maybe if you do L81 Timing Belts for a living and 'time is money' you can justify those tools. For this shade tree mechanic, who may never do another one, it's impossible to justify - even if it takes me 3 times longer without them. And the fact that they are so over-priced definitely makes it a 'non-starter'. Jmho.

[eowynn]

here is a not over priced version of the timing tool i bought, i felt it was worth it or at least gave my inexperience some piece of mind, comes with T20 socket and the 32mm i believe it is, offset box wrench

http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDi...lookup=OTC6687

[Chazberry]

Originally Posted by eowynn

here is a not over priced version of the timing tool i bought, i felt it was worth it or at least gave my inexperience some piece of mind, comes with T20 socket and the 32mm i believe it is, offset box wrench

http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDi...lookup=OTC6687

If I had seen these tools for this price before I started the job, I would have gone for it. But after having done the job w/o them, and then realizing it really wasn't as scary as I first thought, I would not recommend the tools for anyone planning to do this job only once - especially with all the tips and pics that are now available at Saturnfans.

[Joelsaturnvue]

I have a 2002 awd saturn vue and recently changed (successfully) my timing belt and water pump (including some of the pulleys) without purchasing/renting that expensive timing belt changing tool kit.

And for your problem, you need to be able to line up all the markings BEFORE you turn the crank shaft (2 x 360). Not easy to do with the timing belt changing tool kit but I figured out a way with more readily available tools.

Hope this helps.

[Joelsaturnvue]

Originally Posted by Chazberry

Maybe if you do L81 Timing Belts for a living and 'time is money' you can justify those tools. For this shade tree mechanic, who may never do another one, it's impossible to justify - even if it takes me 3 times longer without them. And the fact that they are so over-priced definitely makes it a 'non-starter'. Jmho.

I was able to figure out with more conventional tools how to change my Saturn 2002 Vue awd timing belt, water pump, and some of the pulleys all without the timing belt tool kit. Also, the tool kit wouldn't have made the job any quicker. Hope this is helpful.

[omariot]

Hi,
I am working on changing my timing belt in a 2002 saturn vue V6, I ordered timing belt kit tb285k3, but when I opened the package it is a tb285k2.

The bottom pulley is different is an adjustable as the one one the right top, and the timing belt I do not know if it is the same.

Does anybody knows if I can use tb285k2 on the 2002 saturn vue V6.

Thanks.
Omar.

[Chazberry]

Originally Posted by omariot

Does anybody knows if I can use tb285k2 on the 2002 saturn vue V6.

Which make kit? Rockauto.com lists both the K2 and K3 for the '02 L81.