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Old 10-01-2022, 04:38 PM   #1
dj1111
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Default Rear brake line burst

I was working on the front brakes and once complete I went in the car and pumped the brakes to expand the calipers. A couple of pumps and suddenly the pedal went to the floor. This is a 2000 SL2. Looked under the car and the lines going to the rear brakes where wet for several feet with fluid and one or both burst and brake fluid was dripping fast. Was probably starting to leak for a while now. Really sad.

At my age I just don't feel like diving into it. I payed $4700 for it in 2005 and have driven it for over 17 years now. I've come too far and retired to have my 22.5 year old car malfunction and get us into a crash. Last year the fuel pump went out and then the ignition control module and coil packs. Plus it needs tires before winter. It's to the point where what's next? We only have been driving it in town in recent years because we just don't trust it for long distances. Or getting too far from home.

Looking at the brake lines it looks like a pretty big job. All the complete lines end to end need to be replaced. Even the front lines look very rusty. And all the clips and screws holding the lines to the frame and brackets are pretty much deteriorated and unrecognizable from rust. I live in the upper Midwest so there's the salt in winter. And it probably would be prudent to change all the hydraulics while I'm at it. Well maybe not the master cylinder.

Has anyone out there replaced all the hydraulics on one of these? And if so would you ever do it again, LOL?
...
When I was younger I drove a lifted 4x4 truck with over sized tires. Needed a ladder to get into it. Now in my 60's I drive an SL2 and need a ladder to get out.
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Old 10-01-2022, 05:05 PM   #2
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

All of my Saturns and my 2000 Buick Century have new nicopp lines and rubber hoses. Yep I'd do it again but won't need to for a few decades.
...
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Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
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Old 10-01-2022, 06:48 PM   #3
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

Quote:
Originally Posted by dj1111 View Post
At my age I just don't feel like diving into it. ...

Looking at the brake lines it looks like a pretty big job. ...

Has anyone out there replaced all the hydraulics on one of these?
Yep, this year. BUT, I started four years ago! When I saw the leak, I tarped the car (1991 SC) for two years out in the yard. Then I moved it into the garage and pulled out the lines. That's when I noticed all the rusty rocker panels and heat shield over the muffler (I live in Ohio). Did I mention the unibody rust just behind the trailing arms? And the headliner I took out and replaced? Then, I ran into some medical problems (I'm 75). I lost interest for two years and picked up where I left off this spring. I used the pliable copper lines after I repurposed some HVAC duct to mend the rusted areas. Copious amounts of Truck Bed Coating from Rust-Oleum were sprayed over the repairs. I also did the rear drums and shoes, the front calipers are ugly with rust, but still work great and the front lines were in good shape still. I worked through other things as I got it back on the road, like a wiper motor, recharged my AC, some issues with the canister purge valve and a clogged drain that caused water to leak into the passenger-side floor area. I put on new tires and had a shop weld up a flex pipe and down pipe to the old cat, then they replaced the muffler and a bit of pipe ahead of it. Now it runs like a top, gets me 28 MPG with the AC on and over 30 with it off. It feels like free transportation, since I have no collision insurance or car payment. Looks darn good for 31 years old and doesn't leak any oil at 222,000 miles (although it uses a bit, but not real bad — I hear they do that). Would I do it again? Yes, but a lot faster because now I know how. That's the rub. I'd do it over again because I like driving this car and I took pretty good care of it since I bought it new.

Last edited by dtuuri; 10-01-2022 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 10-01-2022, 07:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

Thanks for the interesting replies. Even though I've done at least 95% of my own car/van/truck repairs in 48 years of driving I'd hardly call me a car guy. I don't thrive on auto repairs. I work on them when I have to. I'm a retired engineer that always loved the challenge of anything mechanical. And quite frankly don't trust most repair shops. But lately with the Saturn my thoughts have gone towards finding something new or newer that should require less repairs. And less to worry about breaking down when 100's of miles from home. The brakes failed in the garage today. I just drove it around town the other day. Talk about dodging a bullet. And my other vehicle is a 17 year old mini van with more miles than the Saturn. Also no spring chicken.

I've saved my family 10's of thousands of dollars over the years doing everything myself. Now I'd like to treat myself with a new or newer car (maybe with a warranty). The only problem is the lack of available cars now-a-days. And the prices OMG.

Next week when I feel like it I will put the drivers side of the car on jack stands and look closer at the brake lines. Where the lines come down from the master cylinder they are clean with no rust. If I could splice in new lines from there it would be less work over all. I did new brake lines many years ago on a 1979 Ford Fiesta. If I remember correctly I spliced in new lines where they were needed.

Do auto parts stores still sell the fittings for this? I do have a pipe/line flaring tool.
...
When I was younger I drove a lifted 4x4 truck with over sized tires. Needed a ladder to get into it. Now in my 60's I drive an SL2 and need a ladder to get out.
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Old 10-01-2022, 09:38 PM   #5
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

Use Nicopp line (should come with all the required fittings, might need 2nd kit for more line) instead of pure steel. It'll last longer and be easier to work with. Still takes some effort to bend, but no where near as much as normal steel lines.
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Old 10-02-2022, 12:18 AM   #6
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

I would recommend against splicing in. Sure you can do it, but it is as much or more work than doing it right. If you are still up for jacking up a car and working on it from underneath, you can do the lines.

Here are my two threads. The brakeline stuff is in there somewhere.
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=230898
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=234273
...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018
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Old 10-02-2022, 10:55 PM   #7
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

Just replace the whole set with stainless. Yes - it's a huge job, but made significantly easier with pre-formed lines. It doesn't matter whether you have ABS or not, the lines are nearly the same with just a little bending.

https://www.inlinetube.com/products/sslb0001
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Old 10-03-2022, 09:26 AM   #8
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

I have done several. They usually blow out the rear lines at the S bend under the driver' s door.

The front lines generally don' t need replacing. If the front lines are that rusty - you' d best check the underbody and see if it is too far gone to make fixing it fiscally realistic.

I have done stainless lines - what a PITA... simply forming the ends is a nightmare.

I have always removed the old lines before starting. You do want to salvage the end fittings. The easiest way is to simply cut the line right at the fitting - and use a 6 point socket and PB blaster.. Work the fittings back and forth rather than trying to come straight out.

I would not do the job on the ground. It' s WAAAY easier on a lift.

The line retaining clips are held on studs with tin nuts. Go to NAPA and but a pack of the nuts. They are usually 3/4 gone anyway. Great care should be made to not breaking off the studs. If you do - do NOT drill through the body forward of the rear wheel before the S bend in order to run in a screw. The wiring bundle to the rear is in that section directly above the brake lines. You could cause a short. Experience speaking here......
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Old 10-03-2022, 10:37 AM   #9
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

Quote:
Originally Posted by onlinebiker View Post
The easiest way is to simply cut the line right at the fitting - and use a 6 point socket and PB blaster.. Work the fittings back and forth rather than trying to come straight out.
Oh! This tip is a keeper: Heat with a hot air gun for about five minutes, then touch a candle to the threads and let the wax seep into the joint. The tube nut comes right out!
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Old 10-03-2022, 07:58 PM   #10
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macgyver View Post
Just replace the whole set with stainless.

https://www.inlinetube.com/products/sslb0001
I'm surprised to see this is available. Very interesting. They sell both steel and stainless. Would the steel be a bit softer if you need to bend it a bit? It is $34 cheaper. I'm just looking to get this on the road for a few more years. The original lines lasted 22 plus years so new steel lines will last likely for the remainder of my Saturn's life.

Have you used these before? Were they a perfect fit?
...
When I was younger I drove a lifted 4x4 truck with over sized tires. Needed a ladder to get into it. Now in my 60's I drive an SL2 and need a ladder to get out.
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Old 10-03-2022, 09:40 PM   #11
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

Quote:
Originally Posted by dj1111 View Post
I'm surprised to see this is available. Very interesting. They sell both steel and stainless. Would the steel be a bit softer if you need to bend it a bit? It is $34 cheaper. I'm just looking to get this on the road for a few more years. The original lines lasted 22 plus years so new steel lines will last likely for the remainder of my Saturn's life.

Have you used these before? Were they a perfect fit?
Both are pretty hard to bend, you'll want a tool either way. No - not perfect, but close enough to where there's minimal bending involved. Way cheaper than copper nickel lines you can bend yourself.

https://www.amazon.com/ABN-Tubing-Fo.../dp/B018UP2608

They come in pieces that you join together using compression fittings. They're strategically separated to make install fast so you don't have to move anything out of the way to install (other than obvious clamps that hold the lines on).
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Old 10-03-2022, 10:26 PM   #12
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

Nicopp is not expensive. I'll never use anything else. Please don't use compression fittings. Here is some light reading.
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=236929

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=233142

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post
Nicopp is the way to go. Both my saturns and my $200 Buick are all nicopp now.

Here is the flare tool you need:
https://www.amazon.com/OTC-4504-Stin.../dp/B0015PMZMU

Here are the new nuts. Yes you can reuse the old ones. Sometimes they don't survive though.
https://www.amazon.com/Metric-Brake-.../dp/B01DAQ0O9W

I can't remember if this link is for 25' or 50'. If you have 50' plenty to do the whole car.
https://www.amazon.com/Nickel-Copper.../dp/B00HFL8BGM

You also need metric flare wrenches. I'll leave that Amazon/Harbor Freight search as homework.

Check out my two threads. There is brake stuff in there somewhere.

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=230898

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=234273

https://buickforums.com/forums/threa...century.52293/

Ok, that was 3 threads, no charge for the $200 Buick documentation.

Don't worry about the spring things. Not really required.

Those nuts are stamped steel. A little PB blaster and they should come off. And you can get new ones at your FLAPS or on Amazon. The real hazard is the studs are weak and may snap off. I got 1/4-20 stainless screws and drilled a hole through the floor. Details on my '99 thread.
Edit: you already have tools for bending nicopp. I'm assuming you have two hands. That's all it takes.
...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018
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Old 10-03-2022, 11:35 PM   #13
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

Thanks Waiex191 and Macgyver. I spent over an hour under the Saturn Sunday afternoon and came to the conclusion this just isn't something I was interested in doing. Today we visited some car dealers to look at new cars to replace the Saturn with. Smaller SL2 sized cars like Toyota Corolla. That was depressing. The dealer has nothing on the lot and has only one Corolla coming in maybe the beginning of November. And I'm not excited about its color and options. And no used Corollas. Got me to thinking. Maybe I will try to change my mind on the Saturn. It's not like it's going anywhere. I'm going to put it back on ramps and see if I can disconnect the brake lines from the rear flex hoses. And see what condition the bleeders are in on the wheel cylinders. And try to open them.

I also need to look at what this will cost me. It also needs new front brakes including calipers. I will have to buy the flare tool. And it needs new tires before winter.
...
When I was younger I drove a lifted 4x4 truck with over sized tires. Needed a ladder to get into it. Now in my 60's I drive an SL2 and need a ladder to get out.

Last edited by dj1111; 10-03-2022 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 10-04-2022, 08:04 AM   #14
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

Quote:
Originally Posted by dj1111 View Post
I'm going to put it back on ramps and see if I can disconnect the brake lines from the rear flex hoses. And see what condition the bleeders are in on the wheel cylinders. And try to open them.
Don't forget to get a heat gun (~$15 @ Harbor Freight) and some birthday candles. I'm not kidding, that trick works! I did my SC with one 25' coil of Nicopp, you will most likely have to get a straight section and a couple of unions if you don't mind having a spliced-in section. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure you'll need two coils because I had just enough to make both lines for my coupe.

Last edited by dtuuri; 10-04-2022 at 08:10 AM.
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Old 10-05-2022, 10:48 AM   #15
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

So I disconnected my leaky brake line, ran a complete new one with new fittings and attached it to the old one with cable ties. Not pretty but it's been on the car and working for several years.
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Old 10-08-2022, 01:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

Quote:
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So I disconnected my leaky brake line, ran a complete new one with new fittings and attached it to the old one with cable ties.
Hmmm makes me think.

I got under the car today. The brake lines broke free from the rear flex lines just fine. A bit of penetrating oil and working them back and forth with a good set of flare wrenches. Also got the passenger side line released from those plastic clips on whatever that suspension bracket is call. And they didn't break.

Then moved on to the bleeders. The passenger side broke loose no problem with several doses of penetrating oil. And yes I used a 6 point box *****. The drivers side was another story. The wrench would not even fit on the hex of the bleeder with all the rust build up. Got it cleaned up so the wrench would fit but it would spin because the high points of the hex were just too rusted away. Craaaaap!!! Well I thought when all else fails get out the vise grip. And dang it I broke it loose. So now to look for some new bleeders. I had some in a stash of old misc car parts but they are too small.
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When I was younger I drove a lifted 4x4 truck with over sized tires. Needed a ladder to get into it. Now in my 60's I drive an SL2 and need a ladder to get out.
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Old 10-08-2022, 03:53 PM   #17
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

Ran into something weird. Everywhere online says my brake bleeders are M10 x 1.0 threads. But what came out of my car are M7 x 1.0. I purchased this car when it was only 5 years old and have never replaced the wheel cylinders. And I'm guessing they were never replaced in the first 5 years. Oh well I found some bleeders locally and they are on the car now.
...
When I was younger I drove a lifted 4x4 truck with over sized tires. Needed a ladder to get into it. Now in my 60's I drive an SL2 and need a ladder to get out.
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Old 10-16-2022, 02:46 PM   #18
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

Parts are due to arrive today. I was under the car getting a preliminary starting plan when I noticed this. Didn't see it before. The frame rail right behind the front passenger wheel has a big hole in it and it's just exploding with rust. I can put my fingers through it. Makes me wonder now if fixing the brakes is worth it. Could I hit a big pothole this winter with that wheel and have that rail completely break/collapse. I don't know. I'm now thinking that old phrase "throwing good money after bad". I'm not about to try to fix that rusted rail. See the attached pics.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Rust1.jpg (106.5 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg Rust2.jpg (101.3 KB, 22 views)
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When I was younger I drove a lifted 4x4 truck with over sized tires. Needed a ladder to get into it. Now in my 60's I drive an SL2 and need a ladder to get out.
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Old 10-19-2022, 02:19 PM   #19
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

I tried to do a couple (6) test flares on the tubing this morning and none of them are coming out good. They bulge over and the flare ends up crooked and/or off center. As I tighten the dye into the tube you can see the tube start to tip sideways slightly then it's all downhill from there. I probably wasted 5" of line already. I'm using the OTC tool as well as the recommended nicopp line. And I'm using a quality micro pipe/tube cutter so the cuts should be square.

It's supposed to be in the 60's starting Friday so I wanted to get this done then.

Does anyone have any advice on how to get a good flare?

Do the flares have to be perfect?

I've successfully used flaring tools before but never for the bubble type.
...
When I was younger I drove a lifted 4x4 truck with over sized tires. Needed a ladder to get into it. Now in my 60's I drive an SL2 and need a ladder to get out.
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Old 10-19-2022, 03:01 PM   #20
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Default Re: Rear brake line burst

Just thought of this. What about temperature of the brake line? It's only 39 out today. Inside the garage it's only a few degrees warmer. Could that be affecting the tubing?
...
When I was younger I drove a lifted 4x4 truck with over sized tires. Needed a ladder to get into it. Now in my 60's I drive an SL2 and need a ladder to get out.
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