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Old 08-27-2013, 07:38 PM   #1
PleasantOne
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Default 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

Hi Everyone,

I do not know a whole lot about cars, but am trying to get some information on the issue I'm having currently, hoping someone here can help.

I bought this car October of last year and it has been nothing but problems since. Most recently, drove it to the store, went in, came out, check engine light was on and car was very sluggish to accelerate. Looked at the codes, and it indicated the pedal position sesnor. I've had two diagnostics done on it at different shops, and they said that I needed a new PPS and ordered it - supposed to have that put in Friday. Basically was told it's safe to drive, it's just in limp somethingorother mode, so it's going to accelerate slowly - so I hadn't been driving it a lot but maybe 2 or 3 miles a day.

Cut to today. Turn the car on, it revs up to 4000rpm as soon as it comes on. Settles back down. Different lights are coming on. The Security light was on... the oil light has been off and on. Turned off, back on, again it revs up... car is even MORE underpowered, now the gas light is on, air bag light is on, along with all the rest. Gauges are at 0 (temp gauge, fuel gauge), etc., and air conditioning is not blowing cold air. Was very close to home (and had my baby with me, just wanted to get home safe), get it to my driveway, notice a bit of white smoke or steam from under the hood. Look under the hood, can't really tell where it was coming from -I think somewhere from under the front of the engine. Smells... funny? under there, but not really like gas or oil.

Tried to turn the car back on again, just to see, was a bit sluggish to turn over, but came on - this time, didn't rev up like crazy, and only lights on were check engine and "Security". I thinkt he gauges were back to working, and I didn't notice if the air was or not.

What am I possibly looking at? I don't think the pedal position sensor would cause all this... I was thinking maybe the whole electrical system is FUBAR, but that doesn't really explain the smoke or steam I saw. I have a call in to the repair shop, but it is closing time so I won't be hearing back until the morning. I paid $5000 for the car, it's very low miles, but I've had to put at least $2500 into it since I bought it. I'm just wondering what it is THIS time and how much this is going to cost me. :
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Old 08-27-2013, 08:20 PM   #2
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

Anyone can guess with little car history given. Mileage, maintenance done, parts replaced?

An initial guess; how old is the battery and what condition is it in? Whether you accept it or not, any repair shop or dealer will attempt repairs cookie cutter fashion. They make money whether or not a repair is successful. Ever hear of anyone being refunded for incorrect repairs?

Batteries can be tested at home or auto store by load testing it. A battery that's failing may or may not announce itself but erratic lights and oddball engine behavior may be voltage related, including poor battery connections.

As you become familiar with Saturnfans, you'll see recurring problems with different symptoms. Search for background info about the engine computer and body control module.
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Old 08-27-2013, 08:36 PM   #3
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

The odometer reads 35000ish. I got it from a dealer, not an individual, and they showed us the vehicle history to support that this wa true and it had been maintained properly. But now I'm starting to wonder... I wa just viewing a post that mentioned there being an issue with the odometer displaying correct mileage and the BCM needing to be reprogrammed. Not an all out recall but an issue GM seemed to be addressing, according to this post I read here...

I've read a good amount on the BCM now and I'm thinking that may be it... Can someone tell me- could the BCM cause the codes to pop for the pedal position sensor and make that malfunction? I do not want to pay them to replace the PPS if the BCM is really the issue.

The battery is the one that was in it when I purchased it. I had it tested probably 6 months ago and it was fine, but not more recently than that. I will take a look at it this evening and see what I can determine. I'm afraid to drive it anywhere else right now, until the shop looks at it again.

I just want to make sure I'm only fixing what needs fix. I'm in a horrible financial spot right now and do not want to be paying $400 for an uneeded repair of the PPS...
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Old 08-27-2013, 08:40 PM   #4
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

Just some history of what I've had done to it since I bought it... new oil pan, new power steering pump, knee joits and ball bearins in front, muffler, a/c work... I know Imm forgetting something. But that is what I remember at the moment. I regularly check the oil, have it chamge and everything checked etc.

Also, thanks to you and anyone else who takes the time to reply- I really appreciate it.
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:38 PM   #5
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

To clarify some things, the pedal position sensor is a three part sub system with the ecm and throttle assembly making up this pie. This drive-by-wire system is all computer controlled without bcm interaction. The bcm acts as a gateway for error codes from the ecm, HVAC, tcm, airbags, and ABS to output thru the diagnostic port below the steering column. While there are few, if any, pedal sensor failures, there are environmental conditions that may cause pedal sensors to fail or become erratic. All our pedals do is send position info to the ecm and the ecm commands the throttle to mimic pedal position. Dual sensors in throttle and pedal ensure against any possibility of a runaway engine. Most issues with pedal or throttle seem to be induced reduced power mode as a default setting to allow driving off to a safe place instead of dying out in the middle of nowhere.

35k miles isn't very much for an 11yr old car unless this was a (retirees?) car that sat more than being used..................Mileage is retained in bcm's and cannot be altered. Only new ones that are blank can be programmed by GM (only). Used bcm's retain their original mileage.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:50 AM   #6
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

So this is more likely two issues that are just happening at once, it sounds like? My luck is just this bad? lol

I know the shop I went to last, before looking at it, told me it could have been as simple as the sensor getting wet, but when they looked at, decided it did need to be replaced.

As for the miles, that was the story- it belonged to an elderly lady who passed away and left it to her grandkid, who didn't want it so traded it in.

My autoshop can't help me until my appointment for the PPS on Friday, so I guess I'll try to get it to O'Reilly and see if they can tell me something about the battery. On the phone shop also said it could be the alternator?
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:02 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

Car batteries and alternators can be tested by almost any auto store selling car batteries as its in their best interest to perform free battery/alternator tests in hope of customers using their courtesy tests to buy products. Since both are expensive they're not likely to steer you wrong.
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

Alright, thank you. I went out this morning and disconnected the battery myself. There was a very little bit of corrosion, but not much... I've certainly seen worse on cars running fine. I cleaned it off, reconnected, and nothing has changed EXCEPT... now sometimes, the battery light is on. It was not on before, as I recall. (I was sure to remove/attach the cables in +the right order, everything was clean and dry, and connections are tight)

I did notice though, that the car will seem ok upon start, and it takes 5-10 seconds before the gauges fail, all the lights come on, etc. I'm not sure if this gives any insight into anything.

I'll be taking it to the auto part store soon. Thanks for your help
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Old 08-28-2013, 03:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

Alright, husband took it to the auto parts place to have the alternator checked and pull codes.

They were unable to check the battery or the alternator, because there was too much background voltage when they went to check. He says they didn't take the battery out to test it and apparently he didn't ask them to, so no way to know if that meant something with the alternator or or the battery... OR... something else, because here are all the codes that were pulled:

p0342 Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Low Input
p0101 DTC P0101 Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor Performance
u2106 ECM - No Communication With Transmission Control Module
p1271 Accelerator Pedal Position (APP) Sensor 1-2 Correlation
p0452 Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor Circuit Low Voltage
u2105 TCM - No Communication With Engine Control Module

Previously, the only code was the P1271.

In addition to all the aforementioned behavior, the car just died on the way home as he tried to drive it here.

Could the battery or alternator do all that? Should I take the battery out and take it in, having them test just that, not hooked up to the car?

Also, could all of the behavior I've talked about cause the a/c not to work? I've been trying to figure out what the smoke or steam I saw the other day could have been from. The coolant level seems ok, so am wondering if something related to the A/C burst or such...
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:41 PM   #10
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

You must live in the high class area. One of my local auto stores performed an alternator/battery test with a portable tester wheeled over to my car as I pulled into the large indoor service bays and parked in front of nowhere. All this man did was hook up two large cable clips to my battery and checked battery and alternator as my car idled. At the time, I was driving a wagon with voltage problems and he suggested the aftermarket Ford voltage regulator were notorious for poor reliability. I replaced it. He went out of his way to tell me not to buy from his store that didn't stock Ford parts. I gave him a tip and went to another store to buy the regulator.

I must be wrong concluding any auto store would be able to test batteries and alternator while in the car. Drag the battery to the store or find another that can test both in the car.

For now, I'm suspicious of any error codes until the main power system, battery and alternator are tested. Those error codes are all over the place with no rhyme or reason. Electronics are spoiled and demand a clean stable source of electricity.
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Old 08-28-2013, 08:20 PM   #11
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

I may not be explaining properly... he got the car to the store, and they did come out and test the battery while hooked up to the car and it running, but the conclusion was they could not tell him anything because there was too much "background voltage". My thought was, how would one know if that is from the battery or alternator if they are testing the whole shebang. Maybe this is faulty reasoning?

At any rate, I did take the battery out and took it to the store, and the battery tested fine. So now it's down to the car, anyway. I called for towing and had the car taken to the shop. They are going to look at this new problem tomorrow. Hoping whatever it is isn't too mindblowingly expensive and that they can get the part and put it in before the holiday weekend, or I'll be carless until at least Tuesday


Just really wondering what the smoke was from now. Hoping it's not a costly A/C repair on top of the other two issues. Really wish I had the know how, tools, and time to do some of this stuff myself. I applaud those of you who do!

I'll update on what I find out in case anyone is curious or it would be helpful to others in the future.
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:38 PM   #12
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

Ok, I understand now. "Background voltage" may be erratic voltage fluctuations from the alternator. Alternators produce alternating current, AC, that cycles in positive and negative voltages that are filtered, regulated and converted to direct current, DC, for automotive electrical use as well as to recharge the battery. An electronic part, diode pack, electronically converts the ac voltage to dc voltage. If one or several diodes (of six) fail, the alternator produces incorrect voltages and other issues. A well trained or experienced person familiar with alternators can tell if one fails or becomes faulty. I don't know if a store clerk or mechanic is familiar with alternator testing. As it is, anyone from an auto using a battery tester should be capable of determining a battery or alternator problem. If "background voltage" isn't recognized as a possible alternator problem then this may suggest unfamiliarity by persons not capable of testing a car's electrical system. While an electronics background isn't necessary, more knowledge allows anyone to have a better grasp of where a problem may lie as opposed to a counter clerk with no familiarity with engines and electrical systems.

Battery and alternator testing is pretty much straight forward for someone familiar with using testing equipment. Perhaps the person testing your car's electrical system isn't familiar?

Basic battery testing at home by anyone can be done using a multimeter to measure battery voltage as well as alternator output. Key numbers; battery voltage should be around 12v+ while an engine idling should produce voltage above 13v - the alternator is supposed to be producing greater than battery voltage to supply all the electrical needs of the car while slowly charging the battery. Typical voltage will be between 13v and 14.7v. Anything below this points to possible loose belt drive, poor battery connections, and a failing alternator. These are simple steps anyone can perform at home with an inexpensive multimeter. Costs range from cheap $5 ones to lab quality meters well over several hundred dollars. A Sears multimeter costing about $30-$50 will last a lifetime+ for everyday use.
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Old 08-30-2013, 03:21 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

Well, it's not the computer or the alternator! It is a broken wire... somewhere... that they are trying to locate. Already $400 just in diagnostic time to try and figure all this out - they think they are close to doing so. When they hook the car up to external power at the fuse box, I think they said? Everything runs fine. Computer tests fine, alternator tests fine... it's something between the two that is the issue. Here is hoping they are right and they are close to finding it... but he says I probably won;t get my car back until Tuesday, so...

I'm ready to trade in for a horse.
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:11 PM   #14
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleasantOne View Post
The odometer reads 35000ish. I got it from a dealer, not an individual, and they showed us the vehicle history to support that this wa true and it had been maintained properly. But now I'm starting to wonder.....
Somebody's not telling you the truth otherwise a very low milage car with so many problems may not be as advertised. More like a high mileage car with problems associated with a well worn car.

So the 'experts' can't find the answer to this latest issue? Seems to me they're very good at draining your purse/wallet.....................
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:20 PM   #15
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

Yeah, I am wondering if the BCM was replaced with a new one and not set up with the right mileage, or a used one with low miles? Seeing as they cannot be rolled back...

The shop I have it at is a new shop, to me, but they have excellent reviews and are very well respected in our community, so I"m not sure what to think. They had to look through all the wiring to find what they thought was it... fixed it, and turns out it is still having problems. So I'm without a car until at least Tuesday now, since they have more to look at. The price they gave me earlier is holding, it sounds like they feel bad charging much more at this point. Said they have three people working on it.

I'm just so frustrated at this point. I'm on a limited income, unemployed and having a rough time finding a job - my mom is having to bail me out to cover the repair. Obviously I can't afford to get something else and then risk it being full of problems, as well... This is my only experience with Saturns, but it's sure not a good one so far ;(
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Old 08-30-2013, 08:18 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

Its unfortunate that you my have inherited the lemon we all don't want to have or hear about as someone gets it............

Referring to local 'gossip' about which repair shops are best may be your turning point. While I may post in sceptical fashion, it is good to hear from anyone about good shops doing good work. Hopefully, if these are truly expert or at least willing to throw all hands on deck to attack a problem, team work can be very useful. From a personal point of view, I know I don't know it all and working with others that I know have just a smidgen more knowledge works out as a team effort to solving problems. I'm mature enough to know that there's always someone smarter than me and if I can use him or her to solve a problem then its a win-win solution. No one can do it all by themselves. I caved in years ago to accept the fact that everyone can contribute to a solution. The trick is knowing who can help and who cannot. There are stories that are not told of incompetence in the workplace.................

This 'problem' seems to be way outside normal issues. Head butting may be the best way here to combine the efforts to arrive at a solution. There's more going on than you and I have written about and a few more brains to team up is one way to attack an unusual problem that one person may miss. Six pairs of eyes are a lot of eyeballing. Surgical.............
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Old 09-09-2013, 04:18 PM   #17
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

Well... after looking through the wiring, they discovered the issue was with the PCM. Ordered a refurbished part from Texas, came in Friday. In installing it today, they found that the wiring harness for the PCM was melted, and they had to get one of those... now they are re-running all the wires through the new one. Estimating the car being ready by Wednesday morning. They've had it two weeks now...

I'm not sure what to think. This is a shop with a very good reputation, but I am so frustrated... Why did they not catch the PCM before they looked through all the wiring? Why did they not see the melted wiring harness before? I imagine this will easily cost me $2000 when all is said and done. I'm in no position to sell it and go buy a better car, but I'm afraid to keep it...

On the melted harness, though, I wonder if that explains the smoke I saw at one point.

Oh, think I forgot to mention, they found an aftermarket remote start wired in and removed it- said those can cause problems. Could it have caused these issues?
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Old 09-09-2013, 05:14 PM   #18
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

Its difficult to comment for or against aftermarket remote start. I have one in my '03 L300 (DEI remote start) and it has never caused problems outside of a little known flaw that activates Passlock to prevent engine running. A minor flaw easily avoided once recognized. Remote start, if installed correctly, is supposed to work seamlessly with GM's Passlock theft deterrent system to allow engine starting without using a key while still affording theft protection if someone tried to drive away; pressing the brake pedal is necessary to shift from Park to Drive and without a key the remote start is disabled, killing the engine as Passlock activates to disable injector operation while flashing the security indicator.

I do not know how wires can burn up, whether from an aftermarket system or something unknown.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:57 PM   #19
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Default Re: 2002 L300 V6 Pedal Position Sensor/Electrical issues?

The design of the smoothing and filtering circuitry inside the PCM is every bit as bad as the BCM. It's a single diode, two cheap capacitors and three linear regulators (3.3v/5v and 12v) - whoever signed off on the design needs a good cock-punching.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if a capacitor or two dried up inside the PCM and the ripple currents shot up far enough to burn components.

I'd be interested in seeing pictures of the PCB of the old PCM. I bet there's some damage to the board. The last one I worked on, one of the coils had heated enough to burn right through the PCB!

Chris...
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