95 s sohc head and head gasket questions

[bman]

We started with changing the head(used one from the wrecker) to eliminate continous fouling of cyl #3 only.

We got a used one (same year)but didn't have a new gasket ...so we used the old one. It was fine...ran well ...without smoke... until it got to operating temp, started running rough and billowing of smoke all the time.


So here is what we have...

Pulled the plugs and they where all saturated with oil.

Pulled the head and all the piston tops where washed with oil and clean of carbon.

Being convinced that we should have used a new gasket to start with, we installed a new one (and valve seals but the same bolts).Torqued down at 22#s then 33#s then 90deg to finish in the sequence suggested on the forum.

Started it up...and smoke still billowing. I drove it down the hiway for 30 min at 100km to clear the exhaust system, but it continues to blow. All the plugs are saturated again.

Question? Could we now be dealing with a cracked head? If so, would all cyl's be oil saturated? Suggestions?
Thanks

[Dr B]

RINGS ,piston rings !
Unless ,maybe you missed getting the timing set correctly,which,would mean holes in top of pistons ect. ,from interference with valves.

[bman]

Thanks for responding...I should also add that it still continues to run very well...running on all cyls.,,just smoke smoke smoke.

[eljefino]

head gaskets are press-to-seal and therefore disposable.

If you think they're expensive try advance auto/parts america/ kragen/schucks, only $17 for a fel-pro there.

Can't believe you went through all the trouble of losing the timing chain cover to skip this step.

[bman]

Could I be way out on my torque spec if Im using a 3/8 drive and a 6" extension on a cheapo torque wrench? Maybe I haven't torqued near what it should be. Any thoughts from the pros?

[Dr B]

No pro here ,but believe the 3/8 drive can very well apply 22 & 33 ft pounds needed for this application ,would probably need to be extra careful for the angles though.
The Saturns ,most all of them seem to have early piston ring failure,more so than most other cars,last time I checked N A P A had a set for 95 model for $87.99 + tax ,think they are sealed power the part # is -PC41866CP- (std.)

[bman]

Thanks for the reply,
The part that is puzzling is that the car never smoked much prior to changing the head and it was fine for a bit after we did the change..but now it billows when you rev from idle.

Can all the cyl rings suddenly allow for oil to get past on all 4 cyls?

Or is it possible that I am not getting proper sealing of the head to block because I didn't use new head bolts?

[samsr]

Using a six inch extension you are going to lose about 5 to 10 pounds of torque with that wrench. More than that when turn the extra 90 degrees. A six inch 2/8 extension flexes a lot when torque is applied. Have you checked the oil to make sure it is not overfull? I worked on one that was smoking like crazy when reved but not when idling. I checked the oil and there it was, About a quart to 2 quarts over full. Also Checker auto parts has those same piston rings for around $30.00. If you need them. I just put a set in the motor I am building.

[BarnOwl]

Originally Posted by samsr

Using a six inch extension you are going to lose about 5 to 10 pounds of torque with that wrench. More than that when turn the extra 90 degrees. A six inch 2/8 extension flexes a lot when torque is applied. Have you checked the oil to make sure it is not overfull? I worked on one that was smoking like crazy when reved but not when idling. I checked the oil and there it was, About a quart to 2 quarts over full. Also Checker auto parts has those same piston rings for around $30.00. If you need them. I just put a set in the motor I am building.

I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe that the torque applied at one end of an extention will be less than that applied at the other end. In fact, everything I can find says just the opposite. There's a fairly good article about torque wrenches here. Below is what it says about extentions:

From time to time people have asked me if it is OK to use an extension with a torque wrench. The answer is yes. Using an extension or reducer with a torque wrench does not affect the accuracy. Others have asked if it is OK to use a universal joint with a torque wrench. The answer is NO. Universal joints change the torque as the drive angle increases. I checked this out with my torque tester. The results are shown in Figure 8c. Don’t use universal joints with torque wrenches.

[samsr]

I guess if I am wrong, I stand corrected. Thanks for the information. I try not to use an extension while I am using a torque wrench. A deep well socket reaches just fine. Sounds like a good subject for mythbusters.

[madpogue]

"Pounds" of torque?

[bman]

According to this forum I did 22#s in seq from center outward, then 33#s the same way and finished with 90 degrees. As mensioned earlier, I did not use new bolts...but could that be the whole problem...Im not getting enough torgue. As I inspect the side of the block behind the exhaust manifold I notice oil and it isn't from the valve cover.

Do you think a new gasket and new bolts would solve it?

Thanks for your input

[amazinghl]

Do a compression test before you do anything else.

[eljefino]

I would try a new gasket and bolts as well as careful cleaning of both deck surfaces.

[BarnOwl]

Originally Posted by amazinghl

Do a compression test before you do anything else.

I agree. It's time to do a little more diagnosis and a little less tear down.

[madpogue]

Originally Posted by bman

I did not use new bolts...

Folks, aren't these the "magic words"?

As I inspect the side of the block behind the exhaust manifold I notice oil and it isn't from the valve cover.

Do you think a new gasket and new bolts would solve it?

A compression test might shed some light, and as said, you may as well do it before you open it up again. But oil externally, oil internally, and re-using TTY bolts, I think you've nailed it. Maybe some folks who have tried (successfully or not) re-using the head bolts will chime in.

[virnin]

I reused the head bolts in the '93 LLO I just put in my '95 SL2. Ran the normal DOHC torque dance. However, it won't be on the road until I get my plates so I don't know how it's going to hold up.

I'm getting ARP head studs for the project engine. The '93 is just temporary while I work on the original DOHC, aka "The Project Engine".