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Old 09-09-2019, 08:51 PM   #1
U2LN
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Default 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

So I was pulling out of a parking space and my car just stuttered out and died and wouldn't start again. It was slightly hard to start the first time. Security light solid, idk if that's relevant.
Fuel gauge reads empty but it was at half tank a few minutes earlier. Fuel pump relay is good but doesn't click when I turn key, so it's not getting the on signal. When I manually trip the relay I can hear the fuel pump, but the car still won't start with the pump manually on.
I probed the connector for one of the spark plugs with the car cranking and didn't get any reading. I also can't connect to the pcm with my obd scanner.
I'm thinking the pcm isn't turning on, so I probed the connectors on the pcm harness that looked relevant (small plug: 1, 8, 23 and large plug: 55, 56 (think i should have checked 76 and 77 also but didn't))
Got about 12v on all of them. Also cracked open pcm but found no visible failures. Not sure what else to check, Anyone got ideas?

Edit: I am aware that there have been similar threads and I have looked over them some.
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Old 09-09-2019, 10:40 PM   #2
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

Those pin numbers for the PCM don't sound right. I don't have info for an '02, but in earlier years (up to about'98) the PCM connectors had numbers like "A12" or "C37". Let's wait for somebody to post the pin-outs for those PCM connectors, so we know for sure. That's the first step, to figure out why your scanner can't connect, and it probably is a problem with power or ground to the PCM. Also, on the earlier PCMs there were only two power pins; one for the "always hot" and one switched on from the ignition key.

Your year may be that much difference, but I would like to find out before wandering into the weeds...
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:08 AM   #3
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

Check the PCM B+ fuse?
...
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:19 PM   #4
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

In addition to checking both fuse boxes for blown fuses, instead of probing the pcm, did it occur to you to try the easiest troubleshooting steps? You manually forced fuel pump operation but didn't check if fuel pressure was there by depressing the fuel test valve. If you do, be sure do cover the valve with a rag in case high pressure fuel sprays out. If fuel sprays, this only covers fuel pressure, not injector operation. A spark test is needed to verify whether or not spark occurs. The simplest test for spark and fuel in one step would be spraying starting fluid into the throttle body. With starting fluid manually fed as fuel, either spark is there to startup the engine or not. An alternative for spark testing would be removing plug wires from both ignition coils after noting firing order and have someone turn the key to start while you observe for spark jumping across both coil towers.
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Old 09-10-2019, 02:32 PM   #5
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
Those pin numbers for the PCM don't sound right. I don't have info for an '02, but in earlier years (up to about'98) the PCM connectors had numbers like "A12" or "C37". Let's wait for somebody to post the pin-outs for those PCM connectors, so we know for sure. That's the first step, to figure out why your scanner can't connect, and it probably is a problem with power or ground to the PCM. Also, on the earlier PCMs there were only two power pins; one for the "always hot" and one switched on from the ignition key.

Your year may be that much difference, but I would like to find out before wandering into the weeds...
I'm using a couple of PDFs I found on another site. I can't remember what site but I believe they were supposed be for this car. As far as the numbers they seem to match what's written on the connector. One of the wires I probed was a different color than the PDF said but I had about 12v on it.
Sharing from Google drive because the they're too big to upload here.
/folderview?id=152GaHR--oRnWY-CD6vC9-mjBYRv-f3UB
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Old 09-10-2019, 02:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

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Originally Posted by SC2Sick View Post
Check the PCM B+ fuse?
Yup it's good.
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Old 09-10-2019, 02:55 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

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Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
In addition to checking both fuse boxes for blown fuses, instead of probing the pcm, did it occur to you to try the easiest troubleshooting steps? You manually forced fuel pump operation but didn't check if fuel pressure was there by depressing the fuel test valve. If you do, be sure do cover the valve with a rag in case high pressure fuel sprays out. If fuel sprays, this only covers fuel pressure, not injector operation. A spark test is needed to verify whether or not spark occurs. The simplest test for spark and fuel in one step would be spraying starting fluid into the throttle body. With starting fluid manually fed as fuel, either spark is there to startup the engine or not. An alternative for spark testing would be removing plug wires from both ignition coils after noting firing order and have someone turn the key to start while you observe for spark jumping across both coil towers.
I went back and checked the valve. I managed to hit the hood with the jet so I'm assuming I have pressure. Considering the relay doesn't even turn on though I would assume the problem is upstream of all that. I did previously check one of the spark plug connectors with a wire to see if I could get any jumps to either the engine block or negative terminal while cranking the car, but I didn't see anything. I don't know if that's a good enough test.

Also apologies to everyone there's probably a way to reply to all 3 of these with one post but I'm not sure how.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:53 PM   #8
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

No apologies necessary. It's all good.

Without getting knee deep into the electrical or electronics as you're trying to do, the simplest troubleshooting methods to check for fuel, fuel pressure (implying pump operation) and spark are tried and true methods. As mentioned previously, you established the fuel pump running but didn't check for spark yet. Two people are needed for a spark test as mentioned or spray starting fluid into the throttle body and try starting for a one man test.

Saturns cycle fuel pumps two ways. Turning ignition on (engine off), the f/p runs for 2 seconds then shuts off (pcm timer). If ignition is left on without starting, there's no point in having the f/p running continuously (safety). When starting, the crank sensor generates timing signals the pcm needs to run the EFI system. As soon as crank sensor signals are sent to the pcm, the pcm turns on the f/p, initiates spark timing for spark and does the same for injector pulses. Bosch invented the EFI system that's troubles free and reliable - used all over the world. Understanding EFI systems is one key to troubleshooting. Based on EFI systems, testing for spark and fuel/injector operation is either a one step (starting fluid) or two step (separately testing for fuel/injector and spark) operation. Your choice whichever suits you for quick testing.

Another way to check for fuel is removing spark plugs and (presuming several starting attempts) examine plugs for fuel (wet, strong smell). This verifies fuel, pressure and injector operation. These are the easiest steps anyone can perform at home.

To sum it all up, either a fuel or spark issue occurred, preventing engine running. A third possibility is a faulty crank sensor that basically kills the entire EFI system because the pcm can't operate without it. A dead crank sensor prevents spark and fuel pump operation while starting.
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Old 09-10-2019, 04:35 PM   #9
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

The OP reports that there is no com between the PCM and scanner. I'm assuming this is a new development, that com was fine before.

That lack of com is a huge clue that something is wrong with the PCM wiring. No amount of fussing with the CKP sensor, fuel pressure, starting-fluid, etc is going to be of use if the PCM isn't connected/powered correctly. why bother until the "no com" issue is, at least, investigated?
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Old 09-10-2019, 04:54 PM   #10
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

Well, zero comms aren't crucial for engine running since it provides secondary info. And all comms are thru the bcm. The pcm communicates data to the bcm for outputting info to readers. If OBD II wiring between bcm and port are damaged, either a short may interfere with comms, interfere with pcm operation or nothing and doesn't interfere with engine running. So many variables when some quick assessments for fuel (on plugs) and spark can help point in a direction. Unless given more symptoms, I'm inclined to troubleshoot fuel and spark first. The OP is free to go any way he chooses from suggestions given.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:32 PM   #11
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

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Originally Posted by billr View Post
The OP reports that there is no com between the PCM and scanner. I'm assuming this is a new development, that com was fine before.

That lack of com is a huge clue that something is wrong with the PCM wiring. No amount of fussing with the CKP sensor, fuel pressure, starting-fluid, etc is going to be of use if the PCM isn't connected/powered correctly. why bother until the "no com" issue is, at least, investigated?
OBD port did indeed work before, but I'm not sure if the engine needed to be running and not just ignition on for it to work. If anyone has the same year and model and wants to check the behavior please do.

What really concerns me though is that I'm getting no fuel pump on signal from the PCM. To clarify, my fuel pump relay works. But I don't get ~2second signal that makes the relay flip when I turn the key, and I don't get the signal when I try to crank either. I can't really check the fuel pump pin on the PCM while it's connected, but I did check the pin on the harness connector and the wiring seems intact to the relay. Considering the fact that the car won't start with the pump manually turned on, I would assume something else is also not functioning, but I am not terribly worried about those components not working since I'm also not getting the pump on signal. Fuel pump signal and whatever else (injectors spark etc) simultaneously failing seems to point to the PCM not doing its job.
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:03 PM   #12
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

Yes, the PCM should connect to the scanner with the engine not running. How about all the dash lights, do those come on at key-on?
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:56 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

The OBD port power is generally run off the cigarette lighter outlet, if that fuse is blown you won't have a valid OBD port (doesn't matter if the reader is self powered or not, unless it's a price of the device thing and the $1000 tools don't care). Get's really confusing when you have a modern vehicle with 2+ ports and at least 2 fuse's for the ports...you'll have some working ports and some not working.

2002 SL1 PCM pin-outs attached, the J2 connector doesn't have any numbering at full size but there should be markings on the connector to indicate pin 1.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2002 PCM Pinout J1-1.jpg (108.0 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg 2002 PCM Pinout J1-2.jpg (158.4 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg 2002 PCM Pinout J1-3.jpg (169.4 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 2002 PCM Pinout J1-4.jpg (132.2 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg 2002 PCM Pinout J2-1.jpg (97.3 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg 2002 PCM Pinout J2-2.jpg (143.2 KB, 8 views)
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:17 AM   #14
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

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Originally Posted by billr View Post
Yes, the PCM should connect to the scanner with the engine not running. How about all the dash lights, do those come on at key-on?
Yes they seem to. I can't post a link, but if you search P2FPOK_Zduo on youtube, (case sensitive) a video of it should pop up.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:18 AM   #15
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

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Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
The OBD port power is generally run off the cigarette lighter outlet, if that fuse is blown you won't have a valid OBD port (doesn't matter if the reader is self powered or not, unless it's a price of the device thing and the $1000 tools don't care). Get's really confusing when you have a modern vehicle with 2+ ports and at least 2 fuse's for the ports...you'll have some working ports and some not working.

2002 SL1 PCM pin-outs attached, the J2 connector doesn't have any numbering at full size but there should be markings on the connector to indicate pin 1.
Port works when I plug my phone charger in so I think that's fine.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:11 AM   #16
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

U2LN, one way to determine if the pcm and bcm are operating; turning on ignition should turn on all instrument panel lights for a few seconds (lamp test), then all turn off except brake (red), oil (red), battery (red), engine (yellow), and security (yellow). If security remains ON, Passlock failed internal self tests and disabled itself, turning on security to alert you to Passlock no longer providing theft deterrence. This may be a clue to possible bcm failure or specific fault. Did you check for blown fuses in both fuse panels? The majority of instrument panel lights are driven by the bcm. The airbag and abs lights ate driven by their respective modules.

There are two fuses powering the pcm. The battery and check engine light are driven by the pcm.

Below is a wiring diagram for the OBD II system, the DLC ( diagnostic link connector) port connected to the bcm. You'll notice no connection between the DLC port and pcm. The pcm communicates directly to the bcm. The bcm outputs all data to the DLC port to a reader or GMs scantool.
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File Type: jpg 20190911_110200.jpg (179.2 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg TifToGif (1).jpg (88.0 KB, 5 views)
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:44 AM   #17
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

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Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
U2LN, one way to determine if the pcm and bcm are operating; turning on ignition should turn on all instrument panel lights for a few seconds (lamp test), then all turn off except brake (red), oil (red), battery (red), engine (yellow), and security (yellow). If security remains ON, Passlock failed internal self tests and disabled itself, turning on security to alert you to Passlock no longer providing theft deterrence. This may be a clue to possible bcm failure or specific fault. Did you check for blown fuses in both fuse panels? The majority of instrument panel lights are driven by the bcm. The airbag and abs lights ate driven by their respective modules.

There are two fuses powering the pcm. The battery and check engine light are driven by the pcm.

Below is a wiring diagram for the OBD II system, the DLC ( diagnostic link connector) port connected to the bcm. You'll notice no connection between the DLC port and pcm. The pcm communicates directly to the bcm. The bcm outputs all data to the DLC port to a reader or GMs scantool.
Ok these all seem to work properly, however my security light is on solid. I don't remember for sure but I don't think it was on before. Interestingly enough, all these lights work with the PCM disconnected. Is it supposed to do that? I did visually check every fuse in each box.
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Old 09-11-2019, 03:26 PM   #18
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

Thanks to the info in reply #13, I have caught up with you regarding the PCM connectors! They numbering is quite different on your gen3.

Are you checking voltages at the (small) PCM connector, P2, with it connected to the PCM? If not, the readings are not conclusive. You need to be "back-probing" that connector for readings. When you do, check the 5V (pin 2), It should come up near-instantly at "key-on", when the P2 pin 23 is powered. You can (and should) check that 5V at the MAP or TPS connectors, again back-probing.

If that 5V doesn't check out, or the 12V when you have things connected and back-probing, I would take the PCM out for bench testing. Connect only power and grounds to the PCM and check the 5V again.

It looks like the instruments don't connect directly to the PCM, they are driven by the BCM. So, it is not impossible that they would all light up at key-on even if the PCM is connected.
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Old 09-11-2019, 06:12 PM   #19
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

It's not suggested to power up with the pcm disconnected as this isn't normal. EFI systems are powered up when ignition is turned on. The bcm checks the Passlock sensor for signals when you turn on ignition, compares this signal to the pcm fuel password and if a match occurs, the bcm sends a fuel enable signal to the pcm. The pcm waits for either a go or no go signal. If go, the pcm enables injector operation. If no go then the pcm disables injector operation. Passlock, pcm and bcm are all tied together for GMs theft deterrent system. Removing the pcm simply throws a wrench into this carefully engineered system. Without a pcm to communicate with, the bcm simply stops running. What you see from indicators may be right or false since GM never intended to write up procedures for leaving the pcm disconnected for troubleshooting. I don't have any idea of what to expect when a pcm is disconnected. All you did was add more problems. Passlock was installed in Saturns beginning with model year 2000 when BCMs were added due to more sophistication of additional electronics. The bcm has many functions; Passlock security, alarm system for horns and lights, control lighting for exterior and interior including GMs DRL, monitoring all modules for issues then passing error codes from each module to the DLC port for a reader or a scantool to decode as well as interface for software updates. The pcm, airbag, abs/tc, and OnStar sends data/error codes thru the bcm.

Passlock security being on simply means it detected an internal fault during every ignition on cycle and instead of interfering with everyday engine starting, it disables itself. You can startup and drive but do not have Passlock protection from someone intending to steal your car. Anyone can try any key, turn ignition on, startup to drive away. Security being on doesn't interfere with troubleshooting other issues.

You can become easily confused from at least two ways of troubleshooting this problem. Checking for fuel and spark, eliminating one or both then moving on to more troubleshooting or try troubleshooting the pcm. Troubleshooting the pcm will not work with any reader as I explained previously - the pcm does not connect to the DLC port. All pcm communications goes thru the bcm that connects directly to the DLC/OBD II port. You won't get any valid signals if the pcm is disconnected. You'll see bcm data and pcm data if the pcm is plugged in and operating. Unless you're technically skilled in EFI systems with advanced electronics knowledge, it's simply easier to attempt a step by step procedure to check for fuel and spark since both are coming from the pcm directly. If you want, you can probe one of four terminals on the fuel pump relay for the fuel pump command signal to power the relay that closes contacts and sends 12v to the fuel pump. The fuel pump relay terminal sockets 85 and 86 are the two terminals to power the fuel pump relay. 30 and 87 are the internal contracts, when closed, sends 12v power to the pump. You can pull the relay to identify markings on the relay cover or underside. You already jumped 30 and 87 to send 12v to the pump. One of the other two terminals, 85 or 86 will have 12v for only 2-3 seconds when ignition is turned on. This is a timed signal from the pcm to prevent unnecessary pump operation if the engine isn't started up. This same signal, from the pcm, will be on as long as the engine rotates during starting or with engine running. During starting/engine running, the crank sensor sends timing signals turning on the pcm. The pcm turns on fuel pump, initiates timing for spark and injectors.
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Old 08-15-2022, 10:19 PM   #20
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Default Re: 2002 SL1, no fuel pump signal, no spark, fuel on empty

What was outcome on this issue?
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