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Old 12-09-2008, 06:40 PM   #1
lswatts
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Default Hard Shifting, Stall Out and Hard Start

I have a 2002 L300, which I have absolutely loved until this recent problem. A few weeks back, my car suddenly started to shift hard and the wrench service light came on. I was concerned, but when I turned off the car and let it rest a bit, the light and problem appeared to be gone.

A few weeks later it happened again, but now it will occasionally stall out when at a full stop. Sometimes it will start right up and other times it needs to rest about 15 minutes or so. I had the codes pulled at Auto Zone and the first set of codes were P0741 (replaced the TCC solenoid) and P07272 (replaced the vehicle speed sensor). Everything was fine for another few days and then it all started to happen again. Went back to Auto Zone and this time pulled code P1780 (replaced PNP switch). Again seemed fine for a few days, but then whole same set of problems started all over again. I just don't want to keep replacing random parts since none of the replacements have seemed to fix the problem.

Does anyone have any ideas? This is very frustrating!!
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Old 12-09-2008, 09:14 PM   #2
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Default Re: Hard Shifting, Stall Out and Hard Start

My first recommendation would be to either check the crank position sensor or replace it. I'm 99.9% sure this is causing your stalling. The next Item I would look into would be cleaning the MAF sensor. Use CRC MAF sensor cleaner. These are 2 of the items that commonly cause issues with the L-series cars.
It sounds odd, but these 2 items cause all sorts of issues that are not related to either of these items.
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Old 12-09-2008, 09:17 PM   #3
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Default Re: Hard Shifting, Stall Out and Hard Start

Is the P07272 correct or incorrect? It contains one too many numbers.

DTC P0727(?) Engine Speed Circuit No Signal or DTC P0272(?) Cylinder 4 Contribution/Balance Fault

DTC P0741 TCC System Stuck Off

DTC P1780 Park/Neutral Position [PNP] Switch Circuit

The last code, P1780, shouldn't have been read by Autozone's readers as its a wrench code that most readers aren't able to decode unless its a better scanner than most. Generally, the SES (service engine soon) indicator and readers will display P0xxx codes while GM/Saturn specific wrench indicator requires better readers to pull additional codes, P1xxx. Aside from this small issue, the other codes don't seem to have any rhyme or reason exept for the first one, P0727? Is this correct or is it P0272? Your posting has one extra number so some clarification is needed

If the code is for P0727, then the crank position sensor (CPS) may be at the heart of all the errant codes. The cps has been known to fail in two different modes; failing intermittently and outright failure. The outright failure is simpler to troubleshoot than the intermittent one as it requires monitoring/looking for spark and injector pulses.

Basically, an outright cps failure is when the engine turns over but never fires up.

An intermittent cps failure tends to occur from engine heat; randomlly killing the engine, forcing an engine cool down of 30-minutes (approximately) before allowing a re-start to drive on until engine heat overcomes the cps again, randomly at any time to kill the engine again.

Your car may have the beginnings of cps failure by giving false error codes other than the P0727. Its located next to the oil filter and mounted with one bolt. Any store stocking it is a good replacement otherwise check online for prices at places like rockauto.com.

Read past threads for some background on the cps failures.
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Old 12-10-2008, 12:05 PM   #4
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Default Re: Hard Shifting, Stall Out and Hard Start

A faulty cps definitely sounds like it could be the culprit since you described exactly how my car has been reacting. And yes the correct code is P0727. Are you also saying that this could cause my car to send out the other incorrect codes? Someone just recently told me you should never touch the MAF sensor as you could cause more problems. Reading through the different threads on this forum thought seems to indicate that cleaning is a common practice and the first alternative to replacing.

Auto Zone had told me if the parts I had purchased corresponding to the codes did not solve the problem I could return them. That works well since I can just exchange for the cps.

Thanks for all the help and I'll let you know if it permanently solves the problem.
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Old 12-10-2008, 01:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: Hard Shifting, Stall Out and Hard Start

The maf sensor seems to be a weak spot in our cars and CRC MAF cleaner will work to at least give a temporary relief if its causing engine problems. The maf sensor element is delicate so handling the circuit board is OK, just not touching the delicate element. Cleaning the element consists of spraying the element to degrease any deposits from the air flowing over it. The cps is a wholly different animal, as described, and difficult to troubleshoot with our ignition system as opposed to engines with spark plug wires. Pulling off plug wires and observing for a lack of spark during starting is one method to test a failed cps in other models.
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Old 12-10-2008, 11:46 PM   #6
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Default Re: Hard Shifting, Stall Out and Hard Start

Quote:
Originally Posted by lswatts View Post
A faulty cps definitely sounds like it could be the culprit since you described exactly how my car has been reacting. And yes the correct code is P0727. Are you also saying that this could cause my car to send out the other incorrect codes? Someone just recently told me you should never touch the MAF sensor as you could cause more problems. Reading through the different threads on this forum thought seems to indicate that cleaning is a common practice and the first alternative to replacing.

Auto Zone had told me if the parts I had purchased corresponding to the codes did not solve the problem I could return them. That works well since I can just exchange for the cps.

Thanks for all the help and I'll let you know if it permanently solves the problem.
Keep in mind guys. Never disconnect the MAF sensor right after you driven the car. Wait about 15-20 minutes because the MAF sensor heats up and burns off any excess oil that built up on it. If you kill the ignition and disconnect the MAF your prematuring destroying the MAF sensor quickly
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Old 12-11-2008, 03:28 AM   #7
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Default Re: Hard Shifting, Stall Out and Hard Start

Quote:
Originally Posted by beensmoked View Post
Keep in mind guys. Never disconnect the MAF sensor right after you driven the car. Wait about 15-20 minutes because the MAF sensor heats up and burns off any excess oil that built up on it. If you kill the ignition and disconnect the MAF your prematuring destroying the MAF sensor quickly
Very good point.
To test the CPS, you need a Ohm meter or Multi-meter. Unplug the sensor connector and perform a resistance test between the 2 connections. I do not recall the exact amount, but if you anything more than 1000 Ohms, replace it. When my wifes car died, it tested at 67,000 Ohms. The new one was very low, I think below 100 Ohms.
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