2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

[BrandonKastning]

Update: Any clarification help would be kind! L81/V6/3.0L L300 (Timing Belt Removal)

Hey everyone! Hope all is doing well this Winter.

I have been studying my Factory Service Manual in preparations of removing my timing belt.

The FSM is confusing me due to the 60 degrees BTDC (before Top Dead Center) *either PRIOR* to inserting the Cam locks RED & GREEN or *AFTER*. As you can see from my post earlier here that I am writing this on; I have already in place both RED AND GREEN keys.

The TDC marks are 100% on camshafts 1, 2, 3 & 4. (They all align perfectly with the back cover notches). Also; the crankshaft TDC is in align with the locking tool *-J69.

What is confusing me is the important notice and the order in which the Factory Service Manual guides me through the process.

The keys only lock into the camshafts (between 1-2) [RED] and camshafts (between 3-4) [GREEN].

What it specifically states is that I need to *somehow* align TDC on camshafts 1,2,3,4 (like now); while having moved the crankshaft 60 degrees BTDC.

What doesn't make sense to me; is it also states *IMPORTANT: do not turn the crankshaft without having the RED AND GREEN camshaft locks in place*.

Yet, 60 degrees BTDC rotated on the crankshaft will prevent piston and valve contact.

Should I just proceed with loosening the camshaft sprocket bolts while keeping all the J69 lock + RED & GREEN keys in aligned to TDC (as they are now).

then remove the belt; THEN rotate the crankshaft 60 degrees BTDC? I have the tool and everything. It's a minor rotation that would allow this to take place.

It just doesn't make sense (the Factory Service Manual); UNLESS... the keys lock in place at both places (camshaft TDC) & (offset? camshafts + 60 degrees BDTC)?

I have attached the pictures from the factory service manual. Please let me know if you understand why my confusion is taking place and what is *The Truth*.

Thanks again and Happy New Year!

~ Brandon

U.S. Const. Art. VI., Clause 2 & 3 (September 17, 1787).
wethepeopleonline.com

[BrandonKastning]

Factory Service Manual Instructions Part B:


Thanks again everyone!

~ Brandon

U.S. Const. Art. VI., Clause 2 & 3 (September 17, 1787).
wethepeopleonline.comhttp://wethepeopleonline.com

[fdryer]

I don't recall rotating the crankshaft 60* BTDC when all timing marks lined up (camshafts 1&2, 3&4, and crankshaft, timing marks aligned to rear timing cover and notch in the engine block). With five timing marks aligned, there's no need to do anything more than use the two camshaft locks. The camshaft locks are more important in holding camshafts in place while removing and replacing timing belt, belt tensioners and idler pulley. The crankshaft, If I recall, won't move since nothing mechanical will move it away from its position after the timing belt is removed.

Not mentioned in service manuals (presuming diyers are mechanically knowledgeable about engines and various methods of mechanical timing including overhead camshafts, overhead valves, pushrods, etc); the timing belt allows the crankshaft to rotate all four camshafts in synch. Without a timing belt the crankshaft is still connected to connecting rods connected to pistons and rotate but the camshafts and valves cannot move. This mechanical disconnect can become a problem of mistiming with rotating the crankshaft with at least one piston hitting at least one valve since the timing belt was removed. Camshafts, valves and valve springs reside in each cylinder head and mechanically separate from the crankshaft. The timing belt connects and synchronizes everything, mechanically linking crankshaft to camshafts. The five timing marks are used to ensure 100% perfect timing.

The goal of timing is to align timing marks to four camshafts and crankshaft to their respective tick marks before and after replacing belt tensioners, idler pulleys and timing belt. Personally, I do not see the merits of attempting to move the crankshaft 60* BTDC once all all five timing marks are lined up before belt removal. Perhaps the 60* preset is to allow for more accurate pre tensioning the two pulley tensioners? Once the belt is removed and the crankshaft locking tool isn't used, the crankshaft won't rotate (but can if disturbed) while removing/replacing the timing belt. (If its disturbed, it can rotate until one of the pistons meets a valve and stops. Simply reset it back to its timing mark.)

I did not use the timing belt kit, made one small mistake without incurring engine damage with one camshaft off by one tooth, reset timing without concern related to the 60* timing procedure. Another member had zero issues, also foregoing a timing belt kit and posted his comments along with snapshots. If I'm not mistaken, the timing belt kit allows dealers and repair shops a shorter time for repairs. I and others used other methods to prevent the four camshafts from movement after the timing belt is removed. Although I didn't remove spark plugs to eliminate compression, I rotated the engine by hand with socket and long handle thru several revolutions after replacing the timing belt without issues, drove the car with immediate misfiring then revisited timing a second time to find one camshaft off by a tooth, reset timing, repeated manually turning the engine by hand before starting up with corrected timing. The engine's fine with zero oil consumption and idles rock steady at 113k miles. A recent outing returned 23mpg, all highway driving.

[BrandonKastning]

fdryer,

Thank you for that detailed conclusion. Do you believe the Factory Service Manual could have added that procedure for Cylinder Head Removal (Front & Rear).

That's my ultimate goal (I have also purchased the Hub Lock Tool for the Crankshaft btw); So I am able to fully lock it (without using the timing belt kit); and actually take the crankshaft bolt off safely.

I will post my FSM procedures for Cylinder Head Removal (Front & Rear); the instructions say that the timing belt replacement procedure must be done prior to getting further until I am finally at the cylinder head gaskets.

Attached is the first 5 pages to "Cylinder Head Removal (Front)"

I definitely want to get this correct. The 60 degrees has my head all confused, even with the degree angle tool for my ratchet.


~ Best Regards,

Brandon

Originally Posted by fdryer

I don't recall rotating the crankshaft 60* BTDC when all timing marks lined up (camshafts 1&2, 3&4, and crankshaft, timing marks aligned to rear timing cover and notch in the engine block). With five timing marks aligned, there's no need to do anything more than use the two camshaft locks. The camshaft locks are more important in holding camshafts in place while removing and replacing timing belt, belt tensioners and idler pulley. The crankshaft, If I recall, won't move since nothing mechanical will move it away from its position after the timing belt is removed.

Not mentioned in service manuals (presuming diyers are mechanically knowledgeable about engines and various methods of mechanical timing including overhead camshafts, overhead valves, pushrods, etc); the timing belt allows the crankshaft to rotate all four camshafts in synch. Without a timing belt the crankshaft is still connected to connecting rods connected to pistons and rotate but the camshafts and valves cannot move. This mechanical disconnect can become a problem of mistiming with rotating the crankshaft with at least one piston hitting at least one valve since the timing belt was removed. Camshafts, valves and valve springs reside in each cylinder head and mechanically separate from the crankshaft. The timing belt connects and synchronizes everything, mechanically linking crankshaft to camshafts. The five timing marks are used to ensure 100% perfect timing.

The goal of timing is to align timing marks to four camshafts and crankshaft to their respective tick marks before and after replacing belt tensioners, idler pulleys and timing belt. Personally, I do not see the merits of attempting to move the crankshaft 60* BTDC once all all five timing marks are lined up before belt removal. Perhaps the 60* preset is to allow for more accurate pre tensioning the two pulley tensioners? Once the belt is removed and the crankshaft locking tool isn't used, the crankshaft won't rotate (but can if disturbed) while removing/replacing the timing belt. (If its disturbed, it can rotate until one of the pistons meets a valve and stops. Simply reset it back to its timing mark.)

I did not use the timing belt kit, made one small mistake without incurring engine damage with one camshaft off by one tooth, reset timing without concern related to the 60* timing procedure. Another member had zero issues, also foregoing a timing belt kit and posted his comments along with snapshots. If I'm not mistaken, the timing belt kit allows dealers and repair shops a shorter time for repairs. I and others used other methods to prevent the four camshafts from movement after the timing belt is removed. Although I didn't remove spark plugs to eliminate compression, I rotated the engine by hand with socket and long handle thru several revolutions after replacing the timing belt without issues, drove the car with immediate misfiring then revisited timing a second time to find one camshaft off by a tooth, reset timing, repeated manually turning the engine by hand before starting up with corrected timing. The engine's fine with zero oil consumption and idles rock steady at 113k miles. A recent outing returned 23mpg, all highway driving.

[BrandonKastning]

"Cylinder Head Removal (Front)" Part #2

[BrandonKastning]

"Cylinder Head Removal (Rear)" Part #1

[BrandonKastning]

"Cylinder Head Removal (Rear)" Part #2

fdryer,

I too hope that I can attain zero oil consumption and a rock steady idle after all this is done and figured out!

I have two hydraulic jacks now to guarantee my ability lift the powertrain and remove the transmission mounting bolt to the cylinder head. (I had to make sure I didn't make a mistake and get stuck or not be able to hold the engine up since I don't have a hoist).

Going by the Factory Service Manual since I made several mistakes earlier that I cannot make moving forward.

If indeed GM put the 60 degree procedure in there for moving past the timing belt (removing the belt, idlers and pulley + back cover after removing the cam sprockets) then that would make sense in securing the valve/piston contact when removing the camshaft(s) or the cylinder heads?

I was going to replace the crankshaft seal while re-assembling; right before putting the new timing belt on.

I also have secured Torque Ratchets as advised from people here; so that I can torque everything to specs; including the new head bolts that I have ready.

Keep being awesome! Thanks again for getting me this far! 100%

~ Best Regards

Brandon

U.S. Const. Art. VI., Clause 2 & 3 (September 17, 1787).
wethepeopleonline.com

[fdryer]

I'm not an expert on writing technical procedures for service manuals but do understand how concise they must be to prevent misinterpretation. At this point in discussions of disassembling engines, an above average knowledge of engine mechanics is helpful because of the nature of mechanical principles of every 4-stroke engine using either a timing chain or belt. The basic mechanical parts of engines hasn't changed as EFI systems added sensors to allow tighter emissions controls while squeezing more power out of an engine thru electronics. Timing belt or chain replacement is not for the faint hearted. The same for cylinder head removal and replacement as timing is lost once heads are removed.

I'm not sure why you seem to insist on removing cylinder heads if you haven't performed any cylinder head compression tests with a compression gauge. Your manuals have specs to determine if engine wear warrants cylinder head and/or engine block repairs. At the least, did you attempt measuring compression to every cylinder before starting this project? You've already determined that timing is fine so cranking the engine over to measure compression can help to figure out if cylinder heads were damaged or not.

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by fdryer

I'm not an expert on writing technical procedures for service manuals but do understand how concise they must be to prevent misinterpretation. At this point in discussions of disassembling engines, an above average knowledge of engine mechanics is helpful because of the nature of mechanical principles of every 4-stroke engine using either a timing chain or belt. The basic mechanical parts of engines hasn't changed as EFI systems added sensors to allow tighter emissions controls while squeezing more power out of an engine thru electronics. Timing belt or chain replacement is not for the faint hearted. The same for cylinder head removal and replacement as timing is lost once heads are removed.

I'm not sure why you seem to insist on removing cylinder heads if you haven't performed any cylinder head compression tests with a compression gauge. Your manuals have specs to determine if engine wear warrants cylinder head and/or engine block repairs. At the least, did you attempt measuring compression to every cylinder before starting this project? You've already determined that timing is fine so cranking the engine over to measure compression can help to figure out if cylinder heads were damaged or not.

fdryer,

No; I did not feel it was necessary to purchase a $30 kit on amazon to determine if I indeed had a coolant leak and needed head gasket replacements; and since I already purchased the full sealing & gasket replacement kit and all the tools to perform this to factory specs; I felt/insist on completing this project without putting anything back together (going backwards); only moving forwards.

I do appreciate the saving me the hassle / troubles by checking prior. I truly want this car to last me 10-15 years if I can indeed achieve victory; make it a family car.

Thank you for caring!

Best Regards,

~ Brandon

[BrandonKastning]

Just an update for anyone following,

I removed the J69* tool and attempted to use my torque angler measurement tool with the intention of pulling the RED/GREEN keys to rule out if there is two spots that the KEYS insert into.

Spot #1: (Verified): TDC Camshafts + Crankshaft (Both Fit Nicely)

Spot #2: (Unverified): 60 degrees BTDC on Crankshaft (My ratchet and E20 is for the 3/8th; and my Angler torque measurement tool is for 1/2 inch.) I won't be able to verify until I purchase those tools. I will update when I know, unless someone has this verified from experience.

Thanks again everyone! Be safe!

~ Brandon

[BrandonKastning]

Just wanted to share a PDF I found on waybackmachine (since it's no longer online); it's a foreign L81 Timing Belt "kit" instructional.

It may help someone who is doing a timing belt change on an L81.


https://web.archive.org/web/20160402083357/http://www.v6calibra.net/docs/Sealy%20V6%20Belt%20Change%20Tool%20vs130.pdf

Best Regards,

Brandon Kastning
~ TruthSword

[BrandonKastning]

Today I attempted to use my new 1/2 inch ratchet with my 1/2 inch E20 socket so that I could use my Degree Angler Tool; so I could get the exact 60 degrees BTDC.

It wouldn't fit in the bay. I don't know how to accurately dial in 60 degrees BTDC.

I need to get the J10 locking tool (water pump + crankshaft) lock.

Ever since I used the breaker bar to attempt a crankshaft bolt loosen without the GM Crank hub lock tool I haven't been able to get the 2 teeth prior to TDC to match perfectly like it did the first I did it with the water pump lock.

The keys were also installed all winter. So I don't know for certain if I had difficulties removing the keys for that reason of it it was off (too much clock-wise rotation on the crankshaft).

I will be taking another go at this with a fresh start!

Gallery Part A:


Best Regards,

Brandon Kastning

[BrandonKastning]

Gallery Part-B:

[lrbraner]

Quote-
Today I attempted to use my new 1/2 inch ratchet with my 1/2 inch E20 socket so that I could use my Degree Angler Tool; so I could get the exact 60 degrees BTDC.

After doing two timing belt replacements I can say for certain that you are fixated on the 60deg BTDC way to much.
It does not need to be exact

[Rj 2000 LS2]

If your timing belt tensioner is hanging up at all... you will never be able to find your mystical 60 degree mark. Looking at the condition of the timing belt tensioner and the idlers, I suggest you to stop worrying about the 60 degree theory and just change the belt and the other components. Only a new belt, tensioner and idlers will find the mystical 60 degree mark. .

Question: Are you spinning the engine both clockwise and counterclockwise to find your exact 60 degree mark? The timing belt system will only function properly when spun in the clockwise direction. Any counterclockwise moment will render the cams out of sync where the locks will not fit.

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by lrbraner

Quote-
Today I attempted to use my new 1/2 inch ratchet with my 1/2 inch E20 socket so that I could use my Degree Angler Tool; so I could get the exact 60 degrees BTDC.

After doing two timing belt replacements I can say for certain that you are fixated on the 60deg BTDC way to much.
It does not need to be exact

lbraner,

Thank you for letting me know this. I just got done attempting to put the J69 waterpump lock on again; I moved the ratchet backwards and forwards (counter clockwise) (2-3 teeth) and slowly moved clock-wise to attempt a lineup with the water pump.

When the J69 tool locks to the water pump correctly flush; I cannot get either 1 or the other keys in; or neither.

I can however eventually get both GREEN AND RED keys in now.

I will share the galleries of my 2 hour attempt this morning.

I had it working before I tried to remove the crankshaft bolt with the J69 tool locked in place with the keys using a breaker bar. (I truly believe this off-set the crankshaft somehow)... because no matter how I try, it just doesn't all line up (all 3 locks).

Thanks for caring lbraner! Nice to see you again!

Best Regards,

~ Brandon Kastning

[lrbraner]

RJ is correct about the direction of rotation.
At this point I would rotate the engine CCW about 90 degrees. Then rotate it CW to engage the crankshaft lock against the water pump.
As a precaution before the CW rotation, I would remove the locking tool and then reinstall it to be certain it is installed properly and didnt get moved, bumped etc.
Then visually check camshaft sprocket alignment with timing cover notches.If aligned properly the sprocket locks should fit.
If they dont then you may have to tweak the camshaft sprockets position
using the eccentric belt idlers.
If you attempt this, start with sprockets 3 & 4
Final note, first, check the alignment mark on the belt with the TDC mark for the crankshaft (6 o'clock position)

[BrandonKastning]

Here is today's 2 hour attempt to lock all 3 *again*.

Legend:

Hair Like Stuff = (I ordered shop rags and didn't know I had to wash them first) ... that was the result and I don't know how to fix it.

My Thumb Down = (I wasn't able to fit the Key in at that positioning).

I am feeling quite sad right now. I feel like I broke my engine.

Gallery A:

[BrandonKastning]

Gallery B:

[BrandonKastning]

Gallery C: