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Old 12-14-2015, 02:13 AM   #1
Zephy
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Default Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

Hey there, on my 1st gen sc2 that I race at two main oval tracks, I've come across a problem. On one track ,I can keep the car in 3rd and it's perfectly fine, no issues, however, on the other track because the corners are tighter 3rd gear drops the rpms way below the powerband and I have no torque exiting the corners. To get around that I have to shift into second, which is fine, but second gear is so short that I hit the rev limiter about a quarter of the way down the straight. So my question is, on these transmissions is there any way to modify second gear to make it a little taller? Is there a replacement out of another similar transmission or someone who can make them custom at a good price that you know of?
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:10 AM   #2
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

Only mod that I know of is swapping 5 th gears. This is probably due to its relative ease. I don't know of any other transmissions that would be "compatible". Getting a gear custom made won't be cheap or very easy to install.
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:15 AM   #3
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

If you only need 1-2-3 then swap a MP2 in there, from a 1st gen SOHC. 2nd & 3rd gear is longer, and its easier than spending hours tearing apart 2 transmissions and then more hours reassembling 1.

If you already swapped a MP2, then all you can do is get a 1st gen MP2 or find a machine shop that can make gears for you.
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:28 AM   #4
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

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Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
If you only need 1-2-3 then swap a MP2 in there, from a 1st gen SOHC. 2nd & 3rd gear is longer, and its easier than spending hours tearing apart 2 transmissions and then more hours reassembling 1.

If you already swapped a MP2, then all you can do is get a 1st gen MP2 or find a machine shop that can make gears for you.
I have not MP2 swapped. I also haven't pulled on of these transmissions to look at it.

I do not want to change 3rd gear, it's perfect for the one track. Is it possible to remove the individual gears? This isn't a street car so hours and money aren't a problem.
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:37 AM   #5
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

Looking through the guide it doesn't look like you can replace 1-4 without major tearing apart. With it torn apart, you can upgrade the diff pin retention with a larger (double?) roll pin in the stock location, a 2nd one on the opposite end and then welding it in place on both ends. That way you won't have to worry about a spinning tire blowing up the transmission. Hmm, could probably get a Quaife LSD and do a similar upgrade to it's roll pin as I remember reading even their $1000 LSD can suffer from the same problem the stock diff does.

Disassemble: http://www.differentracing.com/tech_...sassembly.html
More help: http://sixthsphere.com/showthread.ph...need-some-help
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Old 12-14-2015, 01:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

Just throwing this out as for food for thought but wouldn't it be easier and less costly/time consuming if wheel diameters are changed? Wouldn't this change the speed/rpm/torque in each gear to tune where best rpm is needed for track conditions?
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Old 12-14-2015, 01:31 PM   #7
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Just throwing this out as for food for thought but wouldn't it be easier and less costly/time consuming if wheel diameters are changed? Wouldn't this change the speed/rpm/torque in each gear to tune where best rpm is needed for track conditions?
I was thinking this as well. Change the tires out for different tracks. Here is the breakdown of gear ratios and speeds:





Let me know if you want the excel file to play with. You can change the dynamic tire radius and see how it affects the speeds you can achieve in each gear.
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:05 PM   #8
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Just throwing this out as for food for thought but wouldn't it be easier and less costly/time consuming if wheel diameters are changed? Wouldn't this change the speed/rpm/torque in each gear to tune where best rpm is needed for track conditions?
That's the obvious and easiest answer, however the class rules require me to run the stock tire size, otherwise I'd just run smaller tires on the dirt track and stay in third.
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
Looking through the guide it doesn't look like you can replace 1-4 without major tearing apart. With it torn apart, you can upgrade the diff pin retention with a larger (double?) roll pin in the stock location, a 2nd one on the opposite end and then welding it in place on both ends. That way you won't have to worry about a spinning tire blowing up the transmission. Hmm, could probably get a Quaife LSD and do a similar upgrade to it's roll pin as I remember reading even their $1000 LSD can suffer from the same problem the stock diff does.

Disassemble: http://www.differentracing.com/tech_...sassembly.html
More help: http://sixthsphere.com/showthread.ph...need-some-help
I'll be doing that soon. I lock the rear and burn the tires down every time I win a race lol. Puts on a good show for the fans. Is the Quaife LSD swap worth doing? I battle understeer bad as any FWD would.
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:40 PM   #10
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

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That's the obvious and easiest answer, however the class rules require me to run the stock tire size, otherwise I'd just run smaller tires on the dirt track and stay in third.
So, changing gears inside a xmission isn't illegal insofar as being caught but running non stock tire sizes is? Seems like the old adage of "there's nothing stock about stock cars....."

AlexofNazareth, that chart is great!? A great way to know exact numbers for serious diyers.
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Old 12-15-2015, 01:55 AM   #11
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
So, changing gears inside a xmission isn't illegal insofar as being caught but running non stock tire sizes is? Seems like the old adage of "there's nothing stock about stock cars....."

AlexofNazareth, that chart is great!? A great way to know exact numbers for serious diyers.
It's a lot easier to look at the size on the side of a tire than to pull a transmission and measure the gears haha. So after research I guess my question would be whether or not it's possible to pull the individual gears and replace them? Based on my research that's possible, I've never messed with transmissions before so it'll all be learning to me. I can get ahold of a machine shop no problem, just looking to make sure it's doable. I'd stay 100% stock but I was winning races until a few other stock cars suddenly got waay faster. Just going for a fair deck.
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Old 12-15-2015, 10:25 AM   #12
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

Since you're not going to gain anything substantial from swapping gears (a couple mph difference), the only obvious solution is to change your rev limit.

Using a PCM from an AT vehicle, it effectively eliminates the rev limiter in an MT vehicle. If you were able to rev out to 7000 or 7500, that would increase the maximum vehicle speed you are able to hit in 2nd gear, meaning you would be able to use it the entire straight depending on how long it is.

@6500 RL
Transmission Generation
MP2 '91 MP2 '93 MP2 '98 MP3 '91 MP3 '98
1st 36.91 34.94 34.94 34.94 34.94
2nd 62.74 62.74 58.24 55.24 58.24
3rd 94.09 94.09 96.90 79.81 79.81
4th 131.90 131.90 140.03 109.94 109.94
5th 176.62 176.62 187.71 155.57 155.57


@7000 RL

Max Vehicle Speed per gear
Transmission Generation
MP2 '91 MP2 '93 MP2 '98 MP3 '91 MP3 '98
1st 39.75 37.63 37.63 37.63 37.63
2nd 67.57 67.57 62.72 59.48 62.72
3rd 101.33 101.33 104.35 85.94 85.94
4th 142.04 142.04 150.80 118.39 118.39
5th 190.20 190.20 202.15 167.53 167.53

@7500 RL
Transmission Generation
MP2 '91 MP2 '93 MP2 '98 MP3 '91 MP3 '98
1st 42.59 40.32 40.32 40.32 40.32
2nd 72.40 72.40 67.20 63.73 67.20
3rd 108.56 108.56 111.80 92.08 92.08
4th 152.19 152.19 161.57 126.85 126.85
5th 203.79 203.79 216.59 179.50 179.50
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Old 12-15-2015, 10:26 AM   #13
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

Ill post up the jpg of the matrices after I get off of work so its easier to see
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Old 12-15-2015, 10:58 AM   #14
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexofNazareth View Post
Since you're not going to gain anything substantial from swapping gears (a couple mph difference), the only obvious solution is to change your rev limit.

Using a PCM from an AT vehicle, it effectively eliminates the rev limiter in an MT vehicle. If you were able to rev out to 7000 or 7500, that would increase the maximum vehicle speed you are able to hit in 2nd gear, meaning you would be able to use it the entire straight depending on how long it is.

@6500 RL
Transmission Generation
MP2 '91 MP2 '93 MP2 '98 MP3 '91 MP3 '98
1st 36.91 34.94 34.94 34.94 34.94
2nd 62.74 62.74 58.24 55.24 58.24
3rd 94.09 94.09 96.90 79.81 79.81
4th 131.90 131.90 140.03 109.94 109.94
5th 176.62 176.62 187.71 155.57 155.57


@7000 RL

Max Vehicle Speed per gear
Transmission Generation
MP2 '91 MP2 '93 MP2 '98 MP3 '91 MP3 '98
1st 39.75 37.63 37.63 37.63 37.63
2nd 67.57 67.57 62.72 59.48 62.72
3rd 101.33 101.33 104.35 85.94 85.94
4th 142.04 142.04 150.80 118.39 118.39
5th 190.20 190.20 202.15 167.53 167.53

@7500 RL
Transmission Generation
MP2 '91 MP2 '93 MP2 '98 MP3 '91 MP3 '98
1st 42.59 40.32 40.32 40.32 40.32
2nd 72.40 72.40 67.20 63.73 67.20
3rd 108.56 108.56 111.80 92.08 92.08
4th 152.19 152.19 161.57 126.85 126.85
5th 203.79 203.79 216.59 179.50 179.50
How easy is it to over rev and blow up? I'll be on dirt in second and on asphalt when I win a race I do a sick burnout... for a saturn

Also, 72 mph should be plenty of speed. I assume it would be a good idea to have dual intake cams installed too to get a little extra out of this.
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Old 12-15-2015, 01:50 PM   #15
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

Quote:
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How easy is it to over rev and blow up? I'll be on dirt in second and on asphalt when I win a race I do a sick burnout... for a saturn

Also, 72 mph should be plenty of speed. I assume it would be a good idea to have dual intake cams installed too to get a little extra out of this.
What, are you bouncing off the rev limiter doing a burnout? You do know you can control the RPM as the wheels are spinning. Just don't get carried away with it.
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Old 12-16-2015, 12:26 AM   #16
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

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What, are you bouncing off the rev limiter doing a burnout? You do know you can control the RPM as the wheels are spinning. Just don't get carried away with it.
I am, if I let off any the wheels catch and pull the car haha. Think one of these engines would hold up to 8,000 rpms? If so I could run both cars in second and have a lot more torque exitting corners.
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Old 12-16-2015, 08:39 AM   #17
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

The power is dropping rapidly after 6000 rpm. There is no power benefit from revving higher. The benefit comes from the ability to stay in second gear and not have to lose torque multiplication by shifting to 3rd.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:00 PM   #18
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

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Originally Posted by AlexofNazareth View Post
The power is dropping rapidly after 6000 rpm. There is no power benefit from revving higher. The benefit comes from the ability to stay in second gear and not have to lose torque multiplication by shifting to 3rd.
Will running dual intake cams help with the loss of power after 6000 rpm?
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:46 AM   #19
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

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Will running dual intake cams help with the loss of power after 6000 rpm?
Some says it does, some say it doesn't. When I did it to a '93 SL2 there was a small change, mostly moving the power band up 500-1000rpm. I don't believe anyone has dyno'd just the dual intake cam swap, they've always done more than just that.

Any chance you can use the factory 4-2-1 header from '91-'92 DOHC's?
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:56 AM   #20
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Default Re: Custom gearing question - Manual trans 1st gen

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Some says it does, some say it doesn't. When I did it to a '93 SL2 there was a small change, mostly moving the power band up 500-1000rpm. I don't believe anyone has dyno'd just the dual intake cam swap, they've always done more than just that.

Any chance you can use the factory 4-2-1 header from '91-'92 DOHC's?
Not sure exactly what that header looks like but if it will bolt on I should be able to. I'm not as concerned with the rules as I am with getting caught. As long as it looks stock It's fine.
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