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Old 04-02-2008, 07:42 PM   #1
MichelleG
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Default Reverse Slam Valve Body replacement Reverse Fork

Reverse Slam, Valve Body replacement, No reverse or banging reverse while moving, Reverse fork check, Reverse Dog Clutch Sleeve and Hub...there all the buzz words?...1997 SW1 TAAT 57k original miles, bangs while moving backwards every few feet. Otherwise everything else works as per normal. Fluid filter done, Slam cure tired, VB replaced. As a newbie forgive me, I have spend hours pouring over the great information and still have questions and perhaps others have too? Here goes.....So can you pull the reverse fork while doing a R & R on the valve body? At least should you inspect it then? What if you've lost reverse completely... Heck I'd pull the hood for a better view to explore this concept....that being....I am thinking when I replaced my valve body I wish I had applied air pressure to reverse servo (red arrow) to see the reverse fork (blue arrow) move and spring back..I'd probably rotate the output shaft both directions (???) and still shift it to see what up? (SO SFF experienced... will output shaft rotate in both directions or will the 1st gear sprag stop it in one??) Well I'd try to see if I have issues with the Reverse Dog Clutch Sleeve and Hub (yellow arrow area) as best I could (what the fork should be moving just like a manual synchro). I probably should have looked better at all the gear(s) teeth too while there. (if I have a broke reverse idler gear missing teeth can it be swapped from the valve body off position) I might even pull the fork and inspect it..as I am hearing broken or bent forks might be the culprit of my reverse banging noise only while moving backwards (or read for some others no reverse all of a sudden). Note: forks the old style have roll pin while newer ones have bolt per the stolen photo below thanks PlasticTorpedo how to library). Or is my new found ATSG book knowledge and wishful thinking have me TAAT cure intoxicated? Looking like my Saturday morning agenda to see what if for the above...otherwise April 12 plans are the tranny comes down & out for more exploratory surgery......Gaskets, Reverse Dog Clutch sleeve and hub on order....
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Old 04-03-2008, 12:11 AM   #2
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Default Re: Reverse Slam Valve Body replacement Reverse Fork

Wow. Paragraphs are your friend. Also, can you put it in a bullet formation? i keep getting lost with the way it is written. I honestly can't figure out what you're trying to say.
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Old 04-03-2008, 01:39 PM   #3
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Default Re: Reverse Slam Valve Body replacement Reverse Fork

What you see here (myolbug ) ,is the start of our best trans. EXPERT ,in the first stage ,the info is like fine wine ,slow down ,sip ,swirl it ,look at the bubbles ,if you just gulp it down ,you'll miss the best parts .
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Old 04-03-2008, 08:27 PM   #4
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Default ok you asked for it LOL Thread restated

I recieved a few PM's and yes the 2nd post is right. Thus I agree my SFF thread etiquette certainly needs improvement, and admit the original post thread is random thoughts. I was trying to provoke thoughts and perhaps others answers, and yet not expecting an answer as I outlined what I planned to do the next 2 weekends anyhow. I apologize and accept the recommendation to make more sense. In addition I probably should have added it to the original post I made re: my TAAT, as perhaps unless you read that you didn’t have history of my symptoms and trials at fixing so far.

Thus while I savor my big glass of Merlot and Nachos, I’ll restate what my original post perhaps should have been like, and you'll go glassy eyed as I am also so often accused of doing:

Are you having trouble with: Reverse Slam, contemplating Valve Body replacement, have no reverse, or does the slamming sound in reverse only after & while moving?

Have any of you performed an in car check of the Reverse fork, Reverse Dog Clutch Sleeve and Hub?

I have just acquired a mint 1997 SW1 TAAT 57k original miles; unfortunately it slams while moving backwards every few feet. Otherwise everything else works as per normal. All gearshifts and it engages reverse without issue, just bangs after you roll back. Forward gears all fine. Also I have no SES light. I did not find this issue previously on the SFF site.

I did the tranny fluid exchange, changed filter and reused the magnet. I also put a quart of treatment in then too. I performed the “Wolfman Slam Cure” 3 different times. I then exchanged the Valve Body. While I surely appreciate the SFF history unfortunately these didn’t fix my slam, which again only occurs, in reverse after you roll 5 feet and again in 4 and again maybe in 8, and again maybe never in a short distance reverse (after full stop) pull in parking spot.

Finally once in a while it grinds (I now suspect dog clutch or gear grinding) while quick shift going into reverse from park or neutral, but so far in 3 weeks only like 6 times as I treat it gingerly. I go slow making shift selector transition changes and never while moving, then I back up real slow and it helps avoid it.

As a newbie forgive me, I have spent hours pouring over SFF & the great information (many thanks) and still have questions and perhaps others have too? I don’t wish to re-ask the obvious and am trying to ask and uncover others experiences & thoughts. My TAAT ATSG manual arrived to late for the above work, so I have questions.

If you've lost reverse completely, could it be the Reverse fork?
Can you pull the reverse fork while doing an R & R on the valve body?
When doing a VB replacement at least should you inspect reverse fork then?


When I (perhaps others might want to take note) exchanged my valve body I wish I did more research is all. So I am planning to open my TAAT VB area again this Saturday April 4th. I may even pull the hood as that is nothing (Grease penciled around the brackets in place before you take it off and it’ll locate-go on in place later easily) for a better view to explore.

I plan to perform the air check to the reverse servo (red arrow) to see the reverse fork (blue arrow) move and spring back. I plan to rotate the output shaft both directions while doing same mutiple times to observe. What if it is just a leaking reverse servo pistion? (Follow the How to Lib. Output nut R&R job and you can fix that in the car right?...but I digress).

Have others on the SFF experienced this?
Will output shaft rotate in both directions, or will the 1st gear sprag stop it in one direction?


I plan to try to see if I have issues with the Reverse Dog Clutch Sleeve and Hub (yellow arrow area). It may be buried so I may not be successful. From what I understand the reverse fork should be moving the Dog Clutch Sleeve over the Hub just like a manual transmission synchronizer does.

I believe from the ATSG manual tear down steps, I might even pull the fork and inspect it then too. I have been advised a broken or bent fork might be the culprit of my reverse banging noise only while moving backwards (or read for some others no reverse all of a sudden?). I also plan on looking better at all the gear(s) teeth too while there. As if the gear(s) are bad the new reverse fork, which is the weak link, I am told may fail soon after replacement.

Question: If I have a broke reverse idler gear missing teeth can it be swapped from the valve body off position, removing the end cover as per output shaft R&R how to?

As I plan to do this inspection and even might try all the above removals. Even thought I suspect it is a deeper problem and have to wonder if it isn’t the Dog Clutch Sleeve teeth are shot (or some JA installed it backwards…read another thread sorry already to long winded).

I already have the lift arranged, for April 12th and plans are the tranny comes down & out for more as I have the Gaskets, Reverse Dog Clutch sleeve and hub on order from Saturn.

I might even take pictures of both......

Thanks for the support DR! And the other private messages, but now the wine glass is empty & there is a Les Paul that is also begging for attention now. See TAAT’s and LP’s both I am novice at, wonder which one I desire to be an expert at...TMI? Put you to sleep paragraphs ago? All the best, regards.

Last edited by MichelleG; 04-03-2008 at 08:29 PM. Reason: mis spell
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Old 04-04-2008, 07:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: Reverse Slam Valve Body replacement Reverse Fork

I don't know the answer to your question but, it's intriguing. So, I'll give the thread a bump.
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:32 PM   #6
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Default Re: Reverse Slam Valve Body replacement Reverse Fork

I have, as it seems, precisely the same appendage regarding my 94 SC1. this weekend i plan to start her up and perform the wolf-man slam cure and the input shaft nut tightening and valve body. I really hope it is one of these previous problems as it seems from there the answer is no longer as cut and dry as "wolf-mans" cure. any advice from any one?

Last edited by saturn94v; 04-04-2008 at 08:34 PM. Reason: mispelled words
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:20 PM   #7
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Default Re: Reverse Slam Valve Body replacement Reverse Fork

Yup ,the sprag will hold in one direction,but if you remove it ,WELL no!
you won't be able to change anything ,except the fork ,and valvebody ,through the top opening ,well maybe the linkage rod,if needed .
Does the trans manual show good illustrations ? Steps ,hints and clues ?
just call me (clue bus rider )
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Old 04-05-2008, 10:39 AM   #8
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Default EXPLORING FUN fun fun

Armed with the ATSG manual VB off, I am - exploring, car in neutral rolling it by hand observing...all gear teeth as I roll any listening for strange noises...all good.

I pulled the shift fork bolt (LIME GREEN circle) and it will slide on the shaft...you can examine all gear teeth from here and certinaly clutch packs for obvious damage...repeating roll in my FLAT driveway.

OK follow up to my thread I am making sure shift fork isn't bent or broke.
I observe it's fork tongs are parallel to the gear face you can observe the Selector which is directly attached to the fork ends in in the proper slot...( Selector = Yellow arrow) I know that the selector teeth are not visible.
Again I guess it moves like a syncro for reverse engagement.

I see the reverse driven gear (blue arrow) has male teeth which engage the selector as it slides in place. No damage no observation out of ordinary.

Ditto the 2nd speed driven gear (purple arrow) same teeth for selector to ride over...no joy.

No smoking gun here...dang....might just be sprag? What if pinion gear...haaaa oh the possibilities...
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Old 04-05-2008, 10:48 AM   #9
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Default Image with fork in static position

Image with fork in static position and moved like engaged poristion (sorry didn't get paste into previous paragraphs).
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Old 04-05-2008, 05:01 PM   #10
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Default NO JOY Sat April 5th

SO off with the Valve body, nothing obvious. Drain the tranny pull go ahead and do the input and output nut tightening...although not loose..

It is all back together and I sampled making it happen and I can definitely say it grinds going into park to reverse like a missed shift if you are in a hurry. You head a loud grinding from inside the tranny. If you are not super careful and gingerly treating it....well like a manual transmission might if you missed a shift...I moved the shifter fork over the hub and the selector as per previous posts today....and honestly unless the selector is really missing teeth (wouldn't I see a lot of stuff when I drained the fluid last time?) I am at a loss.


Is it the sprag or the reverse dog selector?


OH BTW - I checked ECTS and is it brass (Red arrow) and a replacement connector (blue arrow) too so for you SL 1.9 SOHC here is a shot of its location vs. the DOHC shown in the lib.
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Old 04-06-2008, 10:26 AM   #11
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Default More ramblings...

I can forget the sprag as Dr B via PM advised me its only holding with 1st clutch operation, not likely the issue when in reverse. Thanks for your research.

Anyone ever have a Reverse Servo Piston O ring fail?
How about failure of End Cover 1st clutch sealing rings?
If you replaced these how important is the GM resizing tool?
If you are careful and oiled well won't they go ok with out special tool?.


Why because the 1st clutch pack end cover seals and even the reverse servo piston seal I believe are accessible and exchange from the side cover off, not tranny removal from the car.

As far as ATSG manual grinding in reverse/binding is only covered in the after rebuild notices....and it is saying you may have put the dog hub and or selector sleeve on backwards. As best I could tell mine is installed proper from factory (exact page showing-reviewing on my 1st photo posted yesterday). ATSG manual states a binding in reverse or delay going into drive end cover seals might be shrunk or damaged with 1st and 2nd get applied at same time.

The rest of my post below is more boring, thoughts & long winded but it is a healing process...haa!
You were warned...so close this window and go on to next thread or risk going glossy eyed again.


If I had one of the GM tech type manuals I would be interested in knowing what rotating masses & pressure paths differ when in neutral (manual spool VB dumps a different path) versus while in park (lube circuit). ATSG manual only have Park Operation circuit path shown (which is lube)so it is much tougher to follow. As I quick shift Park to Reverse, hot or cold, that will be most likely have the grrrrrrrrr grinding sounding like a missed shift. I might pin point more exact leakage potential spots knowing what is charged differently at those times.

Neutral to Reverse doesn't appear to grind. Quick shift Drive to Reverse is likely grind. So as one PM offered me always shift from 4 second count from Neutral-technique (for their reverse slam).

Going into Drive from Park the Manual Spool has to pass the Neutral spool position (dump spot) and lube pressure dumped? Versus not so much time to dump lube pressure (say if it was a tiny no pressure or volume, but a leaking seal into a clutch pack? OK I'm targeting sticking 1st clutch pack). As well if 1st clutch was sticking like that, don't matter going into Drive, just Reverse. Looks like my tranny needs time to shed some residual (not normal) pressure when going from Park or Drive prior to Reverse. But it builds up and slams, when moving back, (dumps) and repeats again in a random pattern.

I am sensing I better delay my tranny pull plans for hub dog clutch replacement and rethink..I might have a soft part failing slightly ... a seal leaking some but not shot. It may even be a fight between reverse selection 2nd pack and 1st pack with the forward reverse servo piston oring leaking some sending oil to 1st clutch pack until it wins...(my strongest hunch now).
Thinking opposite, when in Drive that fed side of piston & its Hydraulic advantage vs smaller diameter of Reverse side would easily over come leak and not allow reverse fork to grind when going or in drive or negage 2nd pack.

Hard parts wise the reverse selector hub looked fine and since they are a ferrous alloy I should have seen more grindings in the oil and magnet and perhaps teeth, chunks. I stroked the reverse servo shaft (& piston - rev fork movement) many times with pry bay, it looked well operational.

From the top I couldn't see the rev idler gear or shaft & it's roller bearing but if it were jumping there causing grind and reverse slam while moving, I sense again I'd have seen metal. Ditto for something like a gear tooth segment missing (all looked good).

Finally on hard part wear, I'd have thought I'd have a more catastrophic failure by now if it were gear and bearing.

Once again I wished I studied some things more yesterday, like the condition of the end cover 1st clutch sealing o-rings as perhaps I have a sticking or low pressure leaking feed to the 1st clutch pack. There is a right side up for them too, maybe they are on wrong.

In closing the 1st clutch pack seals and even the reverse servo piston seal are accessible and exchange form the side cover off, not tranny removal from the car.....so end cover off again??? TBD...

FYI: My end cover removal went easy with no metal frame grind or frame material removal. With tranny drained, and strategic steering wheel turning to right some to set strut angle, it did require me to do removal of the large nut & push bolt back on the upper strut to spindle mount (only top bolt I left lower one intact). I had to remove brake caliper and rotor too. I did drop the frame cradle LH side about 1 inch at the rear bolt and with end cover bolts out it was tight at strut and a little close but that did it.
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Old 04-07-2008, 05:44 AM   #12
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Default Re: Reverse Slam Valve Body replacement Reverse Fork

You're really going where most on this forum fear to tread. I have to ask, have you considered swapping the tranny? That I've done with an automatic. Never had the nerve to go in there as far as you seem to be wanting to go.
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Old 04-14-2008, 08:09 PM   #13
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Default End Cover off again, but alas deeper trouble

Some times grrrr grinds when shifting from Park to Reverse until it engages (then holds well while not moving, gas it and engine will lug). Release and move and then it bangs random if you accelerate in reverse, or go too fast every 5 to 8 feet..random BANG. More throttle the harsher the bang only while in reverse and moving. No other issues what so ever.

Recap: Wolfman Cure tried numerous times, Fluid and Filter R&R with additive done, Valve Body changed and off twice for inspections. Finally End Cover off twice for Nut job and Input shaft end cap seal R&R. All attempting to avoid...what it is most likely to be Reverse Dog Clutch Selector Sleeve on outpur shaft. A tranny removal only accessable part.

This past Saturday AM I did the R&R on the end cap sleeve seals on the input shaft. The spool that the two 8mm bolts hold on... NO JOY.

I'll nurse it a while more, I have the case gasket and hub & sleeve in hand, but no time. Thanks to SFF for the valuable experiences ya'll have had it made these chores go fast and with much more confidence...

As far as Valve Body R&R the SFF How to Lib went very well for me.
While in there (2nd time) I did numerous inspections for gear wear or troubles.

For the End Cover Nut Torque Job the How to Lib went well but with some other additions. changes? (Both times I did not remove tranny mount, but a combination of a lot of notes on SFF... the key I found was turning the steering to the Right it angles the strut back and with 1 bolt off ...viola).

Saturday the second end cover nut torque job I did the complete job in under 3 hours...including input sleeve seal R&R and inspection of gears (can see the reverse idler form there) and stuff while opened up again....nothing abnormal found yet again..

I stole the below photos from other SFF posts and marked up. I drained tranny, jacked LH side only, jack stands behind K frame took off LH wheel. Took off plastic frame front cover. I took off Brake Caliper and the upper line bracket off to hang up & move out of way. I took rotor off, the top bolt (only) off from strut, and NOTE turned steering wheel to Right, you will see strut angle move back, offering more clearance (play with it you will see).

Then dropped with the K frame front LH bolt 1/2 inch out and the LH back bolt 1" almost all the way out. Then off with the end cover perimeter bolts (leave the two 8mm center bolts in cover alone) and the end cover just cleared without any frame grinding and with little fuss-finesse it just cleared with touching the strut,(only place that was trouble) w/o bending it.

Same going in, turn the end cover some you can finesse it through the area. Once past the strut you got lots of room to jiggle the end cover in and to its final seating place.

Finally a word on the Input Shaft End Cap seals... they perhaps are not for the DIY if you haven't the tools or previous techniques to sleeve install hard rings on spools and resize...best them stay away or have extras...but inspect them and be ready to have R&R'd if obvious damaged. The ATSG manual notes they can damaged or wore/shrunk & be a issue. (1st and 2nd clutches applied due to leakage, causing delay in drive or bind in reverse... see why I wanted to at least try....$ 11.00 in parts 1st...I know wishful thinking)....
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Old 04-14-2008, 09:22 PM   #14
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Default Re: End Cover off again, but alas deeper trouble

[QUOTE=

Finally a word on the Input Shaft End Cap seals... they perhaps are not for the DIY if you haven't the tools or previous techniques to sleeve install hard rings on spools and resize...best them stay away or have extras...but inspect them and be ready to have R&R'd if obvious damaged. The ATSG manual notes they can damaged or wore/shrunk & be a issue. (1st and 2nd clutches applied due to leakage, causing delay in drive or bind in reverse... see why I wanted to at least try....$ 11.00 in parts 1st...I know wishful thinking)....[/QUOTE]

Ok. Believe it or not I completely follow you. but since I have been working all along all this time with out a haynes or chiltons manuel, I don't always recognize the exact part name. "input shaft end cap seals" are what/where exactly? what tools rquired? and what about the "output shaft end seal? it looks to me as that is the harder one. it looks like i nead a special set of pliers to remove the black metal ring that seems to hold everything in. what is your take on this?
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Old 04-14-2008, 11:24 PM   #15
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Default OK INput shaft end seals

Sat 94 V ...I post to the thread for reference since you asked in this thread I reply..to help any who read no sweat...I am probably complicating things with my specific issue...

....w/o a manual or trannmission / hydraulic experience I'd say you are doing real well, congrats and keep trying - stick with it!!.

But be careful...."input shaft end cap seals" are the 2 special shaped and sized/seated....seals on the spool shapped metal plug on the short tube or input shaft tube portion bolted (2 x 8mm bolts centered on cover) to the end cover....I'd guess that if your input seal spool (the spool with 2 special seals you noted came off with the two 8mm bolts from center of end cover) slides in & out of the 1st clutch on the input shaft drum with good drag and with your eyeball good observation the seals have no chunks out of em or no obvious deep groves or cuts you are probably good and leave it be, like everyone else....

The metal ring you refer to on output shaft side is a snap ring and you best leave that too.... the output shaft from what I see there feeds lube and 4th clutch, and as I recall not your issue ...???

From what I see most pull the end cover totally as 1 piece with both tubes attached, torque the nut(s) and reassemble... with great success!!!!
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Old 04-14-2008, 11:37 PM   #16
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Default caliper remove not from brake line

FYI my notes mention caliper removal...just location with hoses attached no lines were broken open... not in VB R & R with ABS or the LH caliper removal for end cover nut job as per photos posted above...it is just location removal(s) is all...to shift caliper (or VB service the ABS & Master Cylinder) out of the way...cheers
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Old 04-06-2009, 06:48 PM   #17
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Default Re: Reverse Slam Valve Body replacement Reverse Fork

MichelleG,

Thanks for posting your photos on how you got the end cover off. I just did this last Friday and I moved the brake caliper out of the way, lowered the K-frame, turned the steering wheel, and took off the rotor, but didn't remove the top bolt from the strut. That made it hard to get the cover back on without bending the tube. Since my 23mm socket didn't fit, I'm probably going to have to do this again so your account and photos will be a big help.

--John Kim
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