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Old 04-20-2021, 01:39 PM   #1
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Question Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

Hey everyone!

I am working on an engine timing; pre-op timing belt and seal replacement on this thread with Rj 2000 LS2, lrbraner and myself so far and Rj mentioned a spanner tool. I also remember fdryer mentioning he used DIY tools for his timing belt repair.

I searched the forums "spanner tool timing belt" and I couldn't find but two threads; the one I just mentioned and another which didn't answer my question for L-Series.

Could anyone teach me how to create this tool so that I can succeed in my repair?

Thank you very much!

Best Regards,

~ Brandon Kastning
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Old 04-20-2021, 01:49 PM   #2
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Default Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

Find 4 deep well sockets that will just fit inside the holes of the cam sprocket, then bolt these to a wooden board such that two of the sockets insert into two cam sprocket holes across from one another. Then you use the board like a wrench to apply torque to the cam sprocket to spin it to where you want it. The direction to spin the cams is the shortest route to align the cam with the engine timing marks. Do not take the long distance direction for you will likely damages some valve. It is not a big bunch of torque, just more than you could handle by spinning the cam sprocket by hand, so make a tool instead. Make two of them. The board would be approximately 2 1/2" X 3/4" X 15". I might have a photo of my DIY spanner tool in my timing belt thread.
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Old 04-20-2021, 02:08 PM   #3
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Thumbs Up Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

Okay. How did you bolt a deep well socket to a board? Yes; please provide photos if you have!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
Find 4 deep well sockets that will just fit inside the holes of the cam sprocket, then bolt these to a wooden board such that two of the sockets insert into two cam sprocket holes across from one another. Then you use the board like a wrench to apply torque to the cam sprocket to spin it to where you want it. The direction to spin the cams is the shortest route to align the cam with the engine timing marks. Do not take the long distance direction for you will likely damages some valve. It is not a big bunch of torque, just more than you could handle by spinning the cam sprocket by hand, so make a tool instead. Make two of them. The board would be approximately 2 1/2" X 3/4" X 15". I might have a photo of my DIY spanner tool in my timing belt thread.
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Old 04-20-2021, 02:18 PM   #4
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Default Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

I used bolts and washers to secure the sockets. They wobbled a bit, but they did the job. The tighter you get them the better they will work, but if you don't estimate and drill your holes perfectly in the board, tight sockets, would not fit perfectly in to the cam sprockets. True spanner tools are adjustable. I have no idea if that is what they are named or where you buy them.
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Old 04-20-2021, 02:44 PM   #5
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Default Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=268436, post #20, snapshot #4 clearly shows cast flats to place a wrench on each camshaft.

What may not be clear to you is that any time a camshaft locking tool is removed, in your case to replace a camshaft gear, a wrench is placed on the camshaft flats to prevent camshaft rotation. The camshaft locking tool must be removed to remove the gear. This may allow the two camshafts to rotate on their own. A wrench or wrenches placed on each camshaft flat can help when they rotate freely without the locking tool in place.

You've reached the dilemma mentioned previously but may not appreciate this forewarning because of all the work to reach this point, arriving at lining up timing marks for timing belt replacement. If replacing the timing belt, you're all set to loosen all three idlers for belt slack allowing belt replacement. Once the new belt is on, resetting idler pulleys will be trial as you follow service manual guidelines but timing will be close as the locks are removed. Small adjustments to each idler will correct small errors. Ultimately, you'll have to rotate the crankshaft 720 degrees, two full rotations for timing to be at top dead center to check timing marks. The marked timing belt will not match and ignored as you're only concern is to have crankshaft and cam gears all timed together to the engine notch and cam cover notches.
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Old 04-20-2021, 03:18 PM   #6
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Default Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

The dilemma you're having is deciding on whether or not to replace all cam gears, camshaft and crankshaft seals. At any time, removing the crankshaft pulley and/or camshaft gear(s), locks cannot be used as they're in the way. Loosening the crankshaft bolt, it's presumed the crankshaft pulley timing mark is aligned to the engine notch prior to pulley removal to replace the crankshaft seal. This also means nothing locks the crankshaft from rotating. A 3-jaw pulley/bearing remover is used for this and minimizes crankshaft rotation. If the crankshaft itself is marked at tdc, this will aid in realigning pulley timing. The crankshaft shouldn't rotate much if the camshaft locking tools are in place. If I'm not mistaken, a square key is used to realign crankshaft to pulley. The opposite may hold true too if the crankshaft locking tool is used when replacing camshaft seals and gears.

Removing and replacing crankshaft pulley and/or seal, camshaft gears and/or seals requires advanced planning and broader perspective than timing belt replacement that may not be described well in messages.
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Old 04-20-2021, 03:51 PM   #7
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Default Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

In my head, you'll need to rotate the engine 2880 degrees or more before you have the engine timed and verified correctly. Remember though, regardless if the cam seals are replaced or not, the new belt can be installed with idlers and tensioner and the timing be set by spinning the cams into time using a DIY spanner tool starting with #4, then #3 and #2 and then #1 and then the tensioner as you wrap the belt around in that order.

If the timing marks are within 1 tooth on every mark the belt has been installed correctly. They should be spot on though. Once that is accomplished, you begin the 360 revolution and lock the crank at TDC and adjust timing on BANK2, then tighten everything again before the next 360 spin and install crank lock every time you approach TDC and move to the next bank.

It take two spins for each bank and then you need to reverify BANK1 with another couple of spins. Any adjustment causes all marks to move slightly as you fix the tension on the belt between each surface. This is why you adjust in a counter clockwise fashion. Always spin engine in the clockwise direction, but you adjust BANK2 and then BANK1 ie. counter clockwise around etc...

After the timing marks BANK2 and BANK1 always align after each spin, you install the cam locks and crank lock at TDC and adjust the tensioner for the proper preload and torque to specs, then remove all locks and spin the engine to TDC again (might be more than a dozen spins altogether). You'll know everything is correct when the timing marks on the cams always match the timing marks on the plastic engine marks when you lock in the crank at TDC. Then you're done.
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Old 04-20-2021, 04:32 PM   #8
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Question Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

fdryer,

After carefully reading what you have written. Say I adjust idler pulley 3PM and 12PM slightly enough to get RED and GREEN keys in at TDC with the crankshaft. At this point; I would be happy replacing the timing belt without doing the seals until I complete 1 timing belt job and then do further planning when I am not in this situation.

Do I really need a spanner tool to complete this or should I just take a deep breath and go adjust the idlers slightly and try and fit the keys before removing the belt?

Thanks as always!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
The dilemma you're having is deciding on whether or not to replace all cam gears, camshaft and crankshaft seals. At any time, removing the crankshaft pulley and/or camshaft gear(s), locks cannot be used as they're in the way. Loosening the crankshaft bolt, it's presumed the crankshaft pulley timing mark is aligned to the engine notch prior to pulley removal to replace the crankshaft seal. This also means nothing locks the crankshaft from rotating. A 3-jaw pulley/bearing remover is used for this and minimizes crankshaft rotation. If the crankshaft itself is marked at tdc, this will aid in realigning pulley timing. The crankshaft shouldn't rotate much if the camshaft locking tools are in place. If I'm not mistaken, a square key is used to realign crankshaft to pulley. The opposite may hold true too if the crankshaft locking tool is used when replacing camshaft seals and gears.

Removing and replacing crankshaft pulley and/or seal, camshaft gears and/or seals requires advanced planning and broader perspective than timing belt replacement that may not be described well in messages.
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Old 04-20-2021, 04:33 PM   #9
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Thumbs Up Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

Rj 2000 LS2,

Okay! Duly noted for timing belt installation!

Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
In my head, you'll need to rotate the engine 2880 degrees or more before you have the engine timed and verified correctly. Remember though, regardless if the cam seals are replaced or not, the new belt can be installed with idlers and tensioner and the timing be set by spinning the cams into time using a DIY spanner tool starting with #4, then #3 and #2 and then #1 and then the tensioner as you wrap the belt around in that order.

If the timing marks are within 1 tooth on every mark the belt has been installed correctly. They should be spot on though. Once that is accomplished, you begin the 360 revolution and lock the crank at TDC and adjust timing on BANK2, then tighten everything again before the next 360 spin and install crank lock every time you approach TDC and move to the next bank.

It take two spins for each bank and then you need to reverify BANK1 with another couple of spins. Any adjustment causes all marks to move slightly as you fix the tension on the belt between each surface. This is why you adjust in a counter clockwise fashion. Always spin engine in the clockwise direction, but you adjust BANK2 and then BANK1 ie. counter clockwise around etc...

After the timing marks BANK2 and BANK1 always align after each spin, you install the cam locks and crank lock at TDC and adjust the tensioner for the proper preload and torque to specs, then remove all locks and spin the engine to TDC again (might be more than a dozen spins altogether). You'll know everything is correct when the timing marks on the cams always match the timing marks on the plastic engine marks when you lock in the crank at TDC. Then you're done.
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Old 04-20-2021, 05:00 PM   #10
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Dizzy Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

fdryer,

I have to think about this now. I thought again and realized that no matter what I have to make the adjustments to get the RED/GREEN locks in before I can replace the belt anyways. At this point I would be in perfect position to remove the seals. However the argument remains how much each cams will move during the process; same with the crankshaft I suppose.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonKastning View Post
fdryer,

After carefully reading what you have written. Say I adjust idler pulley 3PM and 12PM slightly enough to get RED and GREEN keys in at TDC with the crankshaft. At this point; I would be happy replacing the timing belt without doing the seals until I complete 1 timing belt job and then do further planning when I am not in this situation.

Do I really need a spanner tool to complete this or should I just take a deep breath and go adjust the idlers slightly and try and fit the keys before removing the belt?

Thanks as always!
...
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Old 04-20-2021, 05:54 PM   #11
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Default Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

They only spin 15 to 30 degrees or so
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Old 04-20-2021, 06:50 PM   #12
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Question Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

Wouldn't that clear the Factory Service Manual's 60 degree BTDC and eliminate any worry for engine damage from the cams spinning 15-30 degrees or even a bit more?

fdryer does make a great point though in that using wrenches on the flat wrench flat to secure the camshaft from moving at all. However that would require a full tear down



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
They only spin 15 to 30 degrees or so
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Old 04-20-2021, 07:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

While deep into timing minutiae, did you take the time to examine the area behind the crankshaft pulley and all four camshafts? Is there evidence of oil seeping, leaving visible trails while collecting belt fragments, dirt and debris to mark an oil leak indicating seal damage from wear and tear? If I'm not mistaken, there are no specific mileage or time references to replace seals, camshaft gears or crankshaft pulley. Determination of when to replace these parts relies on a history of these engines, feedback from dealers to GM headquarters and practical experiences from repair shops and diyers with no one providing documented reports. This leaves a diyer to determine when wear and tear justifies replacing parts without any references to mileage or time. When designed and used in normal everyday driving (non commercial use), camshafts, seals, camshaft gears, crankshafts, pistons, piston rings, water pump pulley, serpentine belt idler pulley, power steering pump pulley are considered life limited parts - they're not replaced unless unusual circumstances damages them resulting in visual wear or damage. The seals used are life limited too - replaced only if wear and tear results in oil leaks. At best, if an engine is overhauled by an experienced diyer knowledgeable about every detail, seals are replaced. The knowledgeable person will already know and/or anticipate the complicated procedures for disassembling an engine to replace all wear items in the process of rebuilding an engine back to like new factory condition.

To replace camshaft gears, the camshaft covers are removed to expose the cast flats on each camshaft, allowing a wrench to prevent camshaft rotation when either a locking tool or camshaft gear is removed. As aluminum locking tools on camshaft gears, cam locks are not designed to restrain cam gears when loosening or tightening cam gear bolts. Yes, you can 'abuse' them but you assume all risks of any damage to locking tools. If these locking tools were designed to hold cam gears in place to loosen/tighten camshaft bolts then they'd be made of machined steel or cast iron. The flats allow placing a wrench to hold a camshaft from turning while loosening/tightening cam gear bolts. They also help when the locking tool isn't used to adjust each camshaft when out of time by several teeth.
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Old 04-20-2021, 07:23 PM   #14
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Thumbs Up Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

fdryer,

When I looked (I will look again and take pictures if I can). It appeared as if there was minor leak marks on the cam seals (Bank 1) - Cam #1; I believe. The crankshaft sprocket (the entire metal box around it; is deeply a major oil deposit which makes me believe there is a leak and I cannot see it yet).

It makes sense how the alternator/generator died now. When I first pulled the rear camshaft valve gasket + cover ; the left side was leaking out the back too. (Right beneath this area is where the alternator must have collected all the oil that made my my alternator almost unrecognizable if you remember *initial reason the car died*, before I towed it back).

I don't see where the crankshaft box could have collected from that leak area; unless somehow on the front camshaft valve gasket + cover area led down and collected (pooled) as RJ mentioned in previous threads.

Thank you fdryer for all that information!



Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
While deep into timing minutiae, did you take the time to examine the area behind the crankshaft pulley and all four camshafts? Is there evidence of oil seeping, leaving visible trails while collecting belt fragments, dirt and debris to mark an oil leak indicating seal damage from wear and tear? If I'm not mistaken, there are no specific mileage or time references to replace seals, camshaft gears or crankshaft pulley. Determination of when to replace these parts relies on a history of these engines, feedback from dealers to GM headquarters and practical experiences from repair shops and diyers with no one providing documented reports. This leaves a diyer to determine when wear and tear justifies replacing parts without any references to mileage or time. When designed and used in normal everyday driving (non commercial use), camshafts, seals, camshaft gears, crankshafts, pistons, piston rings, water pump pulley, serpentine belt idler pulley, power steering pump pulley are considered life limited parts - they're not replaced unless unusual circumstances damages them resulting in visual wear or damage. The seals used are life limited too - replaced only if wear and tear results in oil leaks. At best, if an engine is overhauled by an experienced diyer knowledgeable about every detail, seals are replaced. The knowledgeable person will already know and/or anticipate the complicated procedures for disassembling an engine to replace all wear items in the process of rebuilding an engine back to like new factory condition.

To replace camshaft gears, the camshaft covers are removed to expose the cast flats on each camshaft, allowing a wrench to prevent camshaft rotation when either a locking tool or camshaft gear is removed. As aluminum locking tools on camshaft gears, cam locks are not designed to restrain cam gears when loosening or tightening cam gear bolts. Yes, you can 'abuse' them but you assume all risks of any damage to locking tools. If these locking tools were designed to hold cam gears in place to loosen/tighten camshaft bolts then they'd be made of machined steel or cast iron. The flats allow placing a wrench to hold a camshaft from turning while loosening/tightening cam gear bolts. They also help when the locking tool isn't used to adjust each camshaft when out of time by several teeth.
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Old 04-20-2021, 07:48 PM   #15
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Thumbs Up Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

fdryer,

Back to evidence of replacement needed for cam seals.

I took 3 pictures of the 4 cams. (Cam #4 I couldn't even see angled).

Picture #1 = Evidence of Cam #1 Seal Wear (Oil/Residue all around).

Picture #2 = Looks very clean

Picture #3 = Also looks very clean


and the crankshaft is not pictured here. I just know for certain that it contains a huge oil deposit behind the crankshaft sprocket that I couldn't clean using tools when I was on a cleaning OCD phase.

If I beat this timing barrier and belt change; it will be worth the weeks I spent under the car in scary spots cleaning every part of the engine I could reach.

Thank you for your due diligence!


Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
While deep into timing minutiae, did you take the time to examine the area behind the crankshaft pulley and all four camshafts? Is there evidence of oil seeping, leaving visible trails while collecting belt fragments, dirt and debris to mark an oil leak indicating seal damage from wear and tear? If I'm not mistaken, there are no specific mileage or time references to replace seals, camshaft gears or crankshaft pulley. Determination of when to replace these parts relies on a history of these engines, feedback from dealers to GM headquarters and practical experiences from repair shops and diyers with no one providing documented reports. This leaves a diyer to determine when wear and tear justifies replacing parts without any references to mileage or time. When designed and used in normal everyday driving (non commercial use), camshafts, seals, camshaft gears, crankshafts, pistons, piston rings, water pump pulley, serpentine belt idler pulley, power steering pump pulley are considered life limited parts - they're not replaced unless unusual circumstances damages them resulting in visual wear or damage. The seals used are life limited too - replaced only if wear and tear results in oil leaks. At best, if an engine is overhauled by an experienced diyer knowledgeable about every detail, seals are replaced. The knowledgeable person will already know and/or anticipate the complicated procedures for disassembling an engine to replace all wear items in the process of rebuilding an engine back to like new factory condition.

To replace camshaft gears, the camshaft covers are removed to expose the cast flats on each camshaft, allowing a wrench to prevent camshaft rotation when either a locking tool or camshaft gear is removed. As aluminum locking tools on camshaft gears, cam locks are not designed to restrain cam gears when loosening or tightening cam gear bolts. Yes, you can 'abuse' them but you assume all risks of any damage to locking tools. If these locking tools were designed to hold cam gears in place to loosen/tighten camshaft bolts then they'd be made of machined steel or cast iron. The flats allow placing a wrench to hold a camshaft from turning while loosening/tightening cam gear bolts. They also help when the locking tool isn't used to adjust each camshaft when out of time by several teeth.
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Old 04-20-2021, 10:31 PM   #16
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Default Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

I disagree on all three snapshots displaying signs of oil leakage. The orange color is most likely the plastic seal. What I see are the same deposits on my engine - I'm no expert but I see the smallest amount of oil seepage and accept this as inconsequential. No large amount of oil leaving a vertical trail down each camshaft. The smallest amount of oil seeping past a seal, I think, would be considered acceptable. Others may disagree. I'm open to correction if I'm mistaken with documentation stating what constitutes seal leaks. Overall, minimal seal leaks that don't result in shortening the life of the timing belt in the 100k mile recommended replacement interval would be the prime consideration in determining whether or not seal replacement is necessary.

Since a snapshot wasn't taken to post of crankshaft seal leaks, it remains to be seen if a seal leak exists. Google images of rear crankshaft seal leaks, front leaks, camshaft seal leaks. A perspective from more info related to seal wear is better than debates or interpretations of seal leaks.
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Old 04-21-2021, 12:16 PM   #17
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Thumbs Up Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

fdryer,

I heed your advice and ended up on this thread.

There just may be hope for me yet!

Thanks fdryer!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
I disagree on all three snapshots displaying signs of oil leakage. The orange color is most likely the plastic seal. What I see are the same deposits on my engine - I'm no expert but I see the smallest amount of oil seepage and accept this as inconsequential. No large amount of oil leaving a vertical trail down each camshaft. The smallest amount of oil seeping past a seal, I think, would be considered acceptable. Others may disagree. I'm open to correction if I'm mistaken with documentation stating what constitutes seal leaks. Overall, minimal seal leaks that don't result in shortening the life of the timing belt in the 100k mile recommended replacement interval would be the prime consideration in determining whether or not seal replacement is necessary.

Since a snapshot wasn't taken to post of crankshaft seal leaks, it remains to be seen if a seal leak exists. Google images of rear crankshaft seal leaks, front leaks, camshaft seal leaks. A perspective from more info related to seal wear is better than debates or interpretations of seal leaks.
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Old 04-21-2021, 02:49 PM   #18
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Default Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

This is a perfect example of not viewing the timing marks precisely.

Only paint the actual mark with white paint and then remove all paint but that inside the actual mark slot. This will provide you with the perfect resolution to set your timing accurately.

This gentlemen made a mistake thinking number #1 was off, when it was actually #2 that was off by one tooth. I know from experience, if #1 is off by one tooth, the engine will run like crap if at all. But, if #2 is off by one tooth, it will still run okay but roughly.

Brandon, word of warning. I know it is good practice to start with an engine in "time" and then lock everything and replace the belt. However, you did something with a breaker bar and the belt is likely stretched or jumped a tooth (somewhere). Even if you do manage to get the locks to install and the timing looks correct, it may not be. Why, because the components are not new. It doesn't take much to make a mark wonder a tooth off. I would put more worth in the new timing belt and it's marks than I would with the old belt. By getting the locks installed and put the new belt on and trust the marks on the new belt. However, you have to install the belt perfectly as per the marks on the new timing belt. Those marks will align with the engine marks perfectly, if installed correctly. Bank 2 or Bank 1 cams can be off by one tooth or even 8 teeth and the locks will still fit. All it means when the cam locks are installed is.. they are spun to a point where the peaks and valleys will readily accept a belt. Just because the locks install, doesn't necessarily mean that bank is in time. It just means they are sync-ed together to accept the belt.

If you get the new belt installed and the TDC is aligned perfectly with the new belt TDC mark, but every other belt timing mark is off by one tooth forward. Don't just release the locks and spin the engine and attempt to adjust all BANKs with the idlers. What you need to do is remove the belt and reroute it again such that all marks align with the engine marks. In this example, the error was made because there was one extra tooth between the crank and #4 causing every mark the same error across the cam sprockets. The marks on the new belt are exact and you must install the belt perfectly, then adjust and runout the tension such that it is equal everywhere while still remaining in perfect timing.

Sorry for writing books, but using the old belt and other old parts to set the timing... I am having second thoughts. You want to replace the cams seals, right? So leave the crank locked and take the belt off, loosening the small hex tool first, then removing the idlers and the belt. The cams might or might not spin, no big deal if they do. Just don't be handling them and get your fingers tangled in between them when they decide to move! Valve springs are rather mean! Treat them like a loaded gun!

Remove one sprocket at a time, replace the seal, and reinstall the sprocket. Torque it if you have use a spanner tool to hold the sprocket in place Do the next to complete a bank. Use two spanner tools to spin the cam the shortest direction to align the timing marks. Note: Don't mistake #2 mark for #1 or vs vs. Be sure the proper sprocket mark is aligned with the correct cam shaft. Once both are in time, install the cam lock. It will likely take 4 hands, two spanner tools and one slick character to insert the lock very gently. When done, move to the next bank and repeat. Then install the new belt trusting the new belt timing marks and align the new belt timing marks exactly to each engine timing mark.

There, I've given you several possible paths to achieve greatness and finish this timing belt task. There is only one correct, right result, the engine is correctly time and it runs properly. Any errors and it likely won't start and/or run smoothly. My concern is... you have worked on so many different things, diagnosing a non-start could be difficult. Therefore, be 100 percent certain of the timing belt work so you don't get entangled in a catch 22 situation later.
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Old 04-21-2021, 03:31 PM   #19
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Thumbs Up Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

Rj 2000 LS2,

Thank you for writing a book. It is incredibly important. In fact; both your advice and fdryers are absolutely critical.

I am almost certain that this point that I will be doing a tear down so that I can utilize the flat's and attain wrenches that fit appropriately.

I don't want to error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
This is a perfect example of not viewing the timing marks precisely.

Only paint the actual mark with white paint and then remove all paint but that inside the actual mark slot. This will provide you with the perfect resolution to set your timing accurately.

This gentlemen made a mistake thinking number #1 was off, when it was actually #2 that was off by one tooth. I know from experience, if #1 is off by one tooth, the engine will run like crap if at all. But, if #2 is off by one tooth, it will still run okay but roughly.

Brandon, word of warning. I know it is good practice to start with an engine in "time" and then lock everything and replace the belt. However, you did something with a breaker bar and the belt is likely stretched or jumped a tooth (somewhere). Even if you do manage to get the locks to install and the timing looks correct, it may not be. Why, because the components are not new. It doesn't take much to make a mark wonder a tooth off. I would put more worth in the new timing belt and it's marks than I would with the old belt. By getting the locks installed and put the new belt on and trust the marks on the new belt. However, you have to install the belt perfectly as per the marks on the new timing belt. Those marks will align with the engine marks perfectly, if installed correctly. Bank 2 or Bank 1 cams can be off by one tooth or even 8 teeth and the locks will still fit. All it means when the cam locks are installed is.. they are spun to a point where the peaks and valleys will readily accept a belt. Just because the locks install, doesn't necessarily mean that bank is in time. It just means they are sync-ed together to accept the belt.

If you get the new belt installed and the TDC is aligned perfectly with the new belt TDC mark, but every other belt timing mark is off by one tooth forward. Don't just release the locks and spin the engine and attempt to adjust all BANKs with the idlers. What you need to do is remove the belt and reroute it again such that all marks align with the engine marks. In this example, the error was made because there was one extra tooth between the crank and #4 causing every mark the same error across the cam sprockets. The marks on the new belt are exact and you must install the belt perfectly, then adjust and runout the tension such that it is equal everywhere while still remaining in perfect timing.

Sorry for writing books, but using the old belt and other old parts to set the timing... I am having second thoughts. You want to replace the cams seals, right? So leave the crank locked and take the belt off, loosening the small hex tool first, then removing the idlers and the belt. The cams might or might not spin, no big deal if they do. Just don't be handling them and get your fingers tangled in between them when they decide to move! Valve springs are rather mean! Treat them like a loaded gun!

Remove one sprocket at a time, replace the seal, and reinstall the sprocket. Torque it if you have use a spanner tool to hold the sprocket in place Do the next to complete a bank. Use two spanner tools to spin the cam the shortest direction to align the timing marks. Note: Don't mistake #2 mark for #1 or vs vs. Be sure the proper sprocket mark is aligned with the correct cam shaft. Once both are in time, install the cam lock. It will likely take 4 hands, two spanner tools and one slick character to insert the lock very gently. When done, move to the next bank and repeat. Then install the new belt trusting the new belt timing marks and align the new belt timing marks exactly to each engine timing mark.

There, I've given you several possible paths to achieve greatness and finish this timing belt task. There is only one correct, right result, the engine is correctly time and it runs properly. Any errors and it likely won't start and/or run smoothly. My concern is... you have worked on so many different things, diagnosing a non-start could be difficult. Therefore, be 100 percent certain of the timing belt work so you don't get entangled in a catch 22 situation later.
...
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Old 04-21-2021, 03:32 PM   #20
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Question Re: Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter (L81) - Spanner Tool (For Timing Belt) How to build?

fdryer,

Do you happen to know where I can find the location of the size of the wrench needed to hold the cast flats on the camshafts?

I am highly considering heeding your advice to hold them in place while doing this and considering a tear-down worth the time to prevent more risk to my engine.

Thank you!

I see them on all the camshafts visible:




Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=268436, post #20, snapshot #4 clearly shows cast flats to place a wrench on each camshaft.

What may not be clear to you is that any time a camshaft locking tool is removed, in your case to replace a camshaft gear, a wrench is placed on the camshaft flats to prevent camshaft rotation. The camshaft locking tool must be removed to remove the gear. This may allow the two camshafts to rotate on their own. A wrench or wrenches placed on each camshaft flat can help when they rotate freely without the locking tool in place.

You've reached the dilemma mentioned previously but may not appreciate this forewarning because of all the work to reach this point, arriving at lining up timing marks for timing belt replacement. If replacing the timing belt, you're all set to loosen all three idlers for belt slack allowing belt replacement. Once the new belt is on, resetting idler pulleys will be trial as you follow service manual guidelines but timing will be close as the locks are removed. Small adjustments to each idler will correct small errors. Ultimately, you'll have to rotate the crankshaft 720 degrees, two full rotations for timing to be at top dead center to check timing marks. The marked timing belt will not match and ignored as you're only concern is to have crankshaft and cam gears all timed together to the engine notch and cam cover notches.
...
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” - John 3:16 (KJV)

Last edited by BrandonKastning; 04-21-2021 at 03:35 PM. Reason: spelling and picture
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