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Old 01-16-2022, 11:15 PM   #1
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Default Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

So...

I think I'm screwed but I wanted to check to see if anyone else has any sources I haven't considered.

This weekend I had planned to replace the clutch on my 95 SC2 because it was slipping after about 75,000 miles. I split the trans and saw trans oil all over the bell housing. The rear seal on the engine was completely fine and not wet at all. Unfortunately, the clutch disc and and pressure plate were all covered in trans oil and this is why the clutch was slipping. The friction material looked great and the clutch wasn't worm much at all.

I checked the bell housing and there weren't any cracks. The diff pin is where it belongs and this is not causing an ATF leak from wearing into the housing. After close examination the leak appears to be originating from the output shaft quill seal. My trans has about 230k on it and everything else on it appears to be working properly.

After checking the usual parts sources it appears that a new quill seal is not obtainable. Even the old stock from the dealers appears to be depleted. It is sad that a $10 seal is going to be the end of my otherwise good transmission. Do I have any other options or do I just need to find another MT from the junkyard?
...
1995 SC2: Back on the road again after my second engine rebuild in two years.
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Old 01-17-2022, 12:39 AM   #2
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

Those type of seals are commercially available in a vast range of sizes. Post the seal OD, seal thickness, shaft OD, and a picture of the seal; let's see what we can come up with.
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Old 01-17-2022, 09:16 AM   #3
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
...picture of the seal...
https://i.imgur.com/0pRr3zH.jpg
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Old 01-17-2022, 04:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

I would need to see just the seal itself, un-installed and with enough detail to make a guess about the lip/garter configuration.
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Old 01-18-2022, 11:14 AM   #5
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
I would need to see just the seal itself, un-installed and with enough detail to make a guess about the lip/garter configuration.
https://imgur.com/a/dGsVkqT

Note the aluminum stuck to the shell. These bearings are pressed-in tight!
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Old 01-18-2022, 02:17 PM   #6
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

Input shaft seal is no longer available, I have been working on a solution for a serviceable unit. May take me some time. Best bet is a new transmission from the junkyard.
...
1994 Sl2 5spd: First Car, Stock: 56,576 (Totaled 1/10/2018)
1994 Sl2 5spd: Inherited, Stock: 494,500
1995 Sl2 5spd: Retired Daily, Not Stock: 196,000
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Old 01-18-2022, 02:31 PM   #7
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

Thanks for the pictures! I see that it is an "assembly". Is there no way to remove the seal (or bearing) from that shell? I'm guessing not, as it looks like it is "roll crimped". Yeah, a new custom part may find some market, if the cost can be kept reasonable.

In the meanwhile, the OP might want to try here, they claim to have them available for $15

http://oemcats.com/oem-parts/21120405.html
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Old 01-18-2022, 08:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
Thanks for the pictures! I see that it is an "assembly". Is there no way to remove the seal (or bearing) from that shell? I'm guessing not, as it looks like it is "roll crimped". Yeah, a new custom part may find some market, if the cost can be kept reasonable.

In the meanwhile, the OP might want to try here, they claim to have them available for $15

http://oemcats.com/oem-parts/21120405.html
Non-existent. I called a gm dealer that searched the nationwide inventory. These seals/ bearing assemblies are no longer available.

I found an off the shelf bearing and seal that could be pressed into either a new machined casing, or a modified original casing. The issue I am up against at this point is the difference in size between the shaft OD and bearing/ seal ID. A sleeve would be needed, but the sleeve would have to be hardened and fitted over the shaft, as the shaft is also the inner race of the roller bearing.
...
1994 Sl2 5spd: First Car, Stock: 56,576 (Totaled 1/10/2018)
1994 Sl2 5spd: Inherited, Stock: 494,500
1995 Sl2 5spd: Retired Daily, Not Stock: 196,000
1995 SW2 4spd: Daily, Stock: 102,000
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Old 01-18-2022, 10:24 PM   #9
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

The S-Series, dropped like a hot potato. I never woulda guessed it.
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Old 01-22-2022, 02:40 AM   #10
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

Thanks for the replies. I tried my hardest to find any stock, as well, and I came up short. I don't have a hydraulic press so I never took the old seal out of the trans. I'm going to get a used trans from the junkyard with 80K on it and I hope that by the time that one fails someone will have figured out something to replace these seals.
...
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Old 01-22-2022, 11:18 AM   #11
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

I put in a request to https://www.usaspareparts.com/parts/...-shfquill.html

After a few days, still no reply.

Maybe another country has new old stock.

I wonder if it’s possible to attach a small metal drip pipe to the bearing’s projecting tube. Drill a hole in the tube and direct the seepage away from the clutch’s friction disk. Let it drip on the ground or into a catch can.
It all depends on clearances. Is there even enough room to do something like this?
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Old 01-22-2022, 06:21 PM   #12
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpdraft View Post
I put in a request to https://www.usaspareparts.com/parts/...-shfquill.html

After a few days, still no reply.

Maybe another country has new old stock.

I wonder if it’s possible to attach a small metal drip pipe to the bearing’s projecting tube. Drill a hole in the tube and direct the seepage away from the clutch’s friction disk. Let it drip on the ground or into a catch can.
It all depends on clearances. Is there even enough room to do something like this?
It is very tight in there, I am not sure there would be room for this.
I am kicking this project into higher gear as it seems like I am not the only person who is needing one at this point.
...
1994 Sl2 5spd: First Car, Stock: 56,576 (Totaled 1/10/2018)
1994 Sl2 5spd: Inherited, Stock: 494,500
1995 Sl2 5spd: Retired Daily, Not Stock: 196,000
1995 SW2 4spd: Daily, Stock: 102,000
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Old 01-22-2022, 09:26 PM   #13
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

Let me know if you want any help in the design or fab of your proto.
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Old 01-24-2022, 12:03 PM   #14
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

To alleviate the seal issue, I would grind a "weep hole" in the tube/snout that the throw-out bearing rides on. Put the hole on the underside of the snout, in as close to the trans case as possible. You may also have to provide a weep hole at the bottom of the bell-housing. With the weep hole, fluid would drip away harmlessly without getting on the clutch/flywheel friction surfaces.
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Old 01-25-2022, 09:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

Where do the splines start on the input shaft itself start? Is there any chance that a seal could fit in the TO bearing tube and seal against the input shaft? I don't know what kind of dimensions we're working with, but I'm thinking something similar to power steering pump shaft seals, or even teflon split ring seals from an automatic trans. Is there any chance that the existing seal can be fished out of the housing, or was it pressed in before the bearing cage was crimped in? I have not seen a Saturn trans since I did the 5th gear swap in the '95 SL2 that I used to own, so I'm just spitballing here.
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Old 01-25-2022, 09:51 PM   #16
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

I was just looking at the pics of the part posted and had another thought. Any chance that the snout that the TO bearing rides on can be pressed out of the bearing housing? That might allow access to the seal itself. That whole thing can't be one piece...
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Old 01-25-2022, 10:36 PM   #17
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

Quote:
Originally Posted by cozwurth View Post
I was just looking at the pics of the part posted and had another thought. Any chance that the snout that the TO bearing rides on can be pressed out of the bearing housing? That might allow access to the seal itself. That whole thing can't be one piece...
It is assembled as two pieces: the bearing and the seal are set in a cartridge which is crimped over the snout. It is not able to be disassembled and replaced unfortunately.
...
1994 Sl2 5spd: First Car, Stock: 56,576 (Totaled 1/10/2018)
1994 Sl2 5spd: Inherited, Stock: 494,500
1995 Sl2 5spd: Retired Daily, Not Stock: 196,000
1995 SW2 4spd: Daily, Stock: 102,000
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Old 01-25-2022, 11:08 PM   #18
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

I have a cut-away drawing of the trans that may help folks trying to follow along here; but the file is too big to post here. If you want it, send me PM with your email address. The resolution isn't good, but it is sure better than nothing...
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Old 01-26-2022, 05:56 AM   #19
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

billr, that would be awesome. PM sent.
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Old 01-26-2022, 06:40 PM   #20
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Default Re: Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

OK, I got the files from billr. Like he said, they're not the clearest when enlarged, but they do give me a better idea of how things fit together in there. It's worth getting so you can see a little of how this thing is put together. I'd love to have an actual engineering drawing that shows a greater detail. At any rate, after seeing the explanation of how the quill 'seal' is made I'm thinking that the seal is likely a traditional metal cage seal that is pressed in before the roller bearing, and before the end is crimped over. Fishing it out seems to be a non-starter. I briefly thought about possibly fitting a seal inboard of the roller bearing. Two problems there... first, it leaves the roller bearing dry, which is bad. Second, there does not seem to be any room. Billr's .pdf file shows the 1st drive gear riding up against the roller bearing cage. No dice there, either. That leads me back to the possibility of teflon sealing rings between the input shaft and the TO bearing tube. Does anyone know the OD of the input shaft and the ID of the tube? There are teflon rings used in automatic transmissions and power steering racks where they hold back much higher pressures than what this seal will ever see. If there is room, or if room can be made on a lathe, then that may be the answer. Just another spit-ball or two...
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