2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

[fdryer]

Originally Posted by BrandonKastning

....Turns out ... The spark plugs were flooded.....

Repeated cold engine starts without the engine firing up usually creates a flooded engine. All EFI systems are highly automated, recognized as instant starting year 'round without touching the gas pedal. During every cold start, engine coolant temps are nowhere near operating temps (195F) so the ecm automatically adds more fuel for starting. A rich fuel mixture is always needed for cold engine starting. And with fuel enrichment the possibility of the engine stalling exists so a high warm-up idle is incorporated. As engine operating temperatures rise, the ecm adjusts to leaner fuel mixtures while lowering high idle incrementally. Instant starting is a hallmark of EFI systems. However, sometimes instant starting fails and we try repeated starting. This can result in engine flooding as fuel continues to be injected, drowning spark.

All owner's manuals mention engine flooding situations and a simple procedure to correct it - holding the gas pedal to the floor during subsequent starts. With EFI systems, specific procedures were developed when a flooded engine occurs, usually in cold weather. Holding the gas pedal down completely to the floor tells the ecm to shut off injectors during starting. With injectors disabled and spark presumed to be available, wide open throttle allows more air into cylinders to dry out wet spark plugs until spark can jump plug gaps to create combustion. A sputtering startup. Once the engine sputters to life and before revving needlessly, release the gas pedal for normal warm-up.

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2

IF the spark plugs are "Flooded", replacing them will only result in the same failure mode after new plugs are installed. The key to any successful diagnostic is to identify the cause and fix that nothing else. Changing the oil is also meaningless. However, NEW is normally always better than USED.

May God be with you too!

Rj,

How can changing the oil be useless when I over-poured as stated in my opening post by an entire quart of oil?

That means that the already existing oil leaks overflowed with an additional 1 quart after the engine seized before a tow truck came and brought it back home.

I am leaning on the reason that my alternator was half way oil baked was that additional 1 quart of oil I added in my desperation to fix it without thinking.

Considering the front intake manifold spark plugs were extremely flooded; now cleaned up with replaced spark plugs.

I am curious to see the rear intake manifold spark plugs as I am guessing the conditions are going to be the same. However; Since I am no engineer or understand the difference between the front intake manifold spark plugs in differential to the rear intake manifold spark plugs and the likelihood that the additional 1 quart of over-filled oil affected the rear ones incorrectly also.

This explains why the engine light "service engine light" remains on with a passlock security code being thrown to prevent the engine from another cycle.

The whole time I was trying to bypass the engine security cut-off only to find out the source could have been faulty plugs.

To rule out efficiently and fairly the cause of the original failure of the engine.

I believe the following has to be done:

- Rear Intake Manifold Spark Plug Change
- Rear Intake Manifold Spark Plug Port Clean x 3
- Rear Intake Manifold Spark Plug Coil Pack Clean
- Put back together

Since the oil level is now correct; the oil change and the the new oil filter will prove useful and needed here.

If it turns over and runs idle. I will be cleaning up the old alternator and testing it at a NAPA Alternator Station down the road from me.

Then the question is...

If Alternator is bad = Alternator failed first; resulting in over filling; resulted in flooding of the engine.

else

If Alternator is good = Spark Plugs weak and led to a failure originally and then the over oil led to a good solid spill resulting in more of a mess and on-start engine-seizing due to GM Passlock Security and the engine sensor(s).

That is where I am at this moment with everything!

Rj, with you mentioning vacuum leak; I will be adding additional O-rings to secure a few weak air coolant vacuum hoses that I have seen.

I also will be replacing my shotty mass air flow sensor replacement work that led to not 100% sealant for 2 years regardless of the previous owners who knew they had an oil siv to begin with.

I am glad that you led me to check those specific two hoses because had I not seen those or known the importance as you signified; I wouldn't have ripped out the 100% weatherizing all season chalking sealant to run a patch on the crankcase gas hose that fdryer identified.

Huge factors here:

* Condition of the rear intake manifold spark plugs
* Said condition with a shotty air coolant hose setup (Brandon's error - 2017)
* Never changing Spark Plugs (They were NGK) -- Not certain if those were factory stock (Front Manifold Spark Plugs revealed this).

* The car had a history of leaking oil and needing a carry around quart of oil for top off's.

* Due to continual oil changes on my part since owning the car I will note that I was surprised when I checked the oil just days before it died before the tow truck. (It was the first time it was "holding" oil long term on the perfect dipstick).

* When the fuses were checked after the tow truck; not one fuse was burnt out regardless of scorched ends. fdryer cleared it up that a good fuse would signify some sort of breakage inside; none resulted.

* I went ahead and changed out every fuse after doing a "listen by ear" check for the fuel pump which made the noise that Chilton said it would if the fuel pump was in working condition. This gave me relief at this time.

* The amount of oil that was on the pulley's, tensioner and alternator is down-right alarming for any Saturn car I would imagine. The amount of hours that I labored in basically tooth and brushing this area and compartments with pulley's alike; I can say that I wouldn't ever leave my engine looking like it did or neglect my engine block again.

As far as drilling down Rj as to source; there are so many factors to analyze after these last 3 spark plugs are replaced and I clean up the alternator and test it.

In the meantime until I get it to idle; I have since replaced my old mass air flow sensor (which is a new part as of 2017) ; just bent the side hoses up to not contribute to a full vacuum affect conditional in that department.

Since the broken gas-crank line has been repaired since you keyed me into checking and fdryer identified the name and purpose; I am confident that this attributed to poor performance long-term.

Until I get to those last 3 (The rear manifold intake rutters are moving when I am using my Dominator prybar on it); however I got banged up before falling asleep in my chair and wanted to move some hosing around in the far back against the engine firewall before continually prying at it without it having sufficient room for maintenance in the condition it's sitting in.

Fun fun!

Excellent weekend Gentlemen! I hope to have a definitive prior to Sunday evening!

Best Regards,

Brandon!

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by fdryer

Repeated cold engine starts without the engine firing up usually creates a flooded engine. All EFI systems are highly automated, recognized as instant starting year 'round without touching the gas pedal. During every cold start, engine coolant temps are nowhere near operating temps (195F) so the ecm automatically adds more fuel for starting. A rich fuel mixture is always needed for cold engine starting. And with fuel enrichment the possibility of the engine stalling exists so a high warm-up idle is incorporated. As engine operating temperatures rise, the ecm adjusts to leaner fuel mixtures while lowering high idle incrementally. Instant starting is a hallmark of EFI systems. However, sometimes instant starting fails and we try repeated starting. This can result in engine flooding as fuel continues to be injected, drowning spark.

All owner's manuals mention engine flooding situations and a simple procedure to correct it - holding the gas pedal to the floor during subsequent starts. With EFI systems, specific procedures were developed when a flooded engine occurs, usually in cold weather. Holding the gas pedal down completely to the floor tells the ecm to shut off injectors during starting. With injectors disabled and spark presumed to be available, wide open throttle allows more air into cylinders to dry out wet spark plugs until spark can jump plug gaps to create combustion. A sputtering startup. Once the engine sputters to life and before revving needlessly, release the gas pedal for normal warm-up.

fdryer,

With exactly what you just said; and re-iterated the only way of starting a flooded engine is to hold the pedal down while cranking. (This was the only way to get the engine to kick over while being jumped from a block on another car vs. a jumpbox.)

Now I am able to jump myself via the jumpbox due to less discharge on my starter battery and the engine flooding has been since solved; at least part a) correct oil level; b) front manifold spark plugs no longer flooded, and replaced with platinum spark plugs and c) the to be continued status report on rear manifold spark plugs and their mirrored replacement(s) and spark plug port clean-up(s).

~ Brandon

[Rj 2000 LS2]

Of course, a car can flood, but it is not a chronic perpetual condition without something causing the engine to not idle. Identify/Isolate/Fix the cause and the flooding situation will then not occur again. Change the plugs and the problem will reappear the first time the engine is cranked.

However, The plugs could be junk and they are likely floating in pools of oil from the massive valve cover leaks! There is no doubt in my mind he will find massive pools of oil around each spark plug and the next step will be remove the back seat and replace the carpeting! Why? Why not? Everything else hasn't worked. Empty the oil from plug wells, replace plugs, replace QPaks... run for a month and the problems reappear again.

The "flooding" is a result from a problem yet to be isolated. All he is doing is chasing symptoms and hoovering around the actual cause i.e. Massive Vacuum Leak and/or Oil Separator PCV Valve problem. The engine won't idle because of the vacuum leak and oil soaked plugs. Find the vacuum leak, fix the oil leaks and repair the broken PVC system which is causing massive oil leaks. These are the problems. Everything else is routine maintenance-ing around the fix.

If you walk with a limp... is the recommended action to remove one shoe or buy new shoes, stop walking, or just sit all the time? All are reasonable, but nothing will stop the limp! This thread is limping and could really turn people off from this forum because it appears we are collectively knownothing's i.e. we don't know jack **** about repairs! No offense intended, but there are trolls that ruin sites for a reason. The fact this new member can't perform one simple test without replacing a multitude of other completely unrelated components... has got me thinking... this entire post is BS! Nobody can be this intentionally erroneous throwing spit balls at the wall replacing parts like Red Green and getting worse results! Anyone following this thread must have the same sense as I do. For this reason, I am done with this thread and it can live on for others to be trolled. Moderators really need to decide if this thread should be removed. If it were up to me, I would delete it. Whether it is real or troll work... this thread is useless! Out!

[fdryer]

BrandonKastning, with 144k miles on this car and no mention of previous maintenance performed by anyone, it's presumed spark plugs, water pump and timing belt weren't replaced.

When removing the front ignition coil pack to reveal access to spsk plugs, were the spark plug wells clean and free of oil? Removing and finding those plugs soaked in fuel, what was their general condition? Can you post a snapshot of them? If we can presume those plugs are original then they should be Bosch FLR9LTE. Another snapshot of close in details of tips? If plugs aren't original, whatever was put in may contribute to this problem.

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by fdryer

BrandonKastning, with 144k miles on this car and no mention of previous maintenance performed by anyone, it's presumed spark plugs, water pump and timing belt weren't replaced.

When removing the front ignition coil pack to reveal access to spsk plugs, were the spark plug wells clean and free of oil? Removing and finding those plugs soaked in fuel, what was their general condition? Can you post a snapshot of them? If we can presume those plugs are original then they should be Bosch FLR9LTE. Another snapshot of close in details of tips? If plugs aren't original, whatever was put in may contribute to this problem.

fdryer,

Thank you for that. I can confirm that the rear intake manifold spark plugs were not factory BOSCH. They were in fact Platinum plugs.

Even after re-assembly (I have huge galleries of each step and plan to continue to contribute to our Saturn Community)

I was able to jump start me and white smoke blew out the back before seizing. Positive note is passlock didn't engage before seizing as it did before. However I was only using keys to get to this stage during those repairs. So it's possible that not using the keyless entry or keying in the key first prior to giving it a test kept passlock off during this trial engine run.

[fdryer]

Platinum spark plugs are recommended for L300s. While there are several brands offering platinum plugs with most manufacturers matching the recommended oem specs, it's sometimes wiser to use oem parts in some applications. Using plugs other than oem opens the possibility to more issues adding to problems. Your choice to sort out additional issues with non oem plugs contributing to your present problem or replacing them with plugs specified in your owner's manual. Second guessing can be expensive with presumptions of "this is fine as I'm ok with these parts...." often leads to misinformed members resistant to suggestions.

And you didn't reply to post#85 - did you find oil in each spark plug well after removing the ignition coil pack? Public message boards relies on feedback to progress. Not replying to questions can result in protracted discussions delaying a final outcome.

[BrandonKastning]

fdryer,

Thank you for the OEM specified spark plug recommendations.

Regarding post #85: The answer is yes. Major oil was found in every spark plug in both manifolds in major excess going all the way to the top of the spark plug socket.

The only spark plug unaffected was the rear manifold intake (far right)

* * [THIS ONE]

I have 3 questions regarding a different matter.

1) Can the timing belt be analyzed for functionality without a cherry picker?

2) Can the engine gaskets be replaced without a cherry picker?

3) If I were to purchase this engine support tool

Norco Professional Lifting Equipment 78099 Heavy Duty 4 Point Engine Support Tool
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073FPD7WJ

Would this allow me to do both of the above without a cherry picker?

Thanks!

~ Brandon

[fdryer]

1-Did you replace spark plugs or not?

2-When plug holes were found full of oil, how did you remove oil?

3--Why do you use the word 'seize' in your descriptions when the engine starts and runs?

4-Does the security indicator (Passlock) turn off during starting?

[BrandonKastning]

Update: Spark Plugs
Location: Under Front Intake Manifold & Coil Pack
Gallery Series: 1

[BrandonKastning]

Update: Spark Plugs
Location: Under Front Intake Manifold & Coil Pack
Gallery Series: 2

Tools:

~ Spark Plug T-Wrench (Insulated 3/8 socket for protection of Spark Plugs ceramic design).

[BrandonKastning]

Update: Spark Plugs
Location: Under Front Intake Manifold & Coil Pack
Gallery Series: 3

Tools:

~ Flat-head screwdriver (Long) to pack down carefully and rotate Kitchen Paper Towels

-- Repeated these steps until all were removed.

~ Gunk Engine De greaser for everything outside around the Coil Pack and Cover.

~ Laser Platinum Spark Plugs

[BrandonKastning]

Update: Spark Plugs
Location: Under Front Intake Manifold & Coil Pack
Gallery Series: 4

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by fdryer

1-Did you replace spark plugs or not?

2-When plug holes were found full of oil, how did you remove oil?

3--Why do you use the word 'seize' in your descriptions when the engine starts and runs?

4-Does the security indicator (Passlock) turn off during starting?

fdryer,

1) Yes I replaced the Spark Plugs (Pictured Above)

2) I removed the oil by using a Flathead Screw Driver and Kitchen Paper Towels (Made Packs and Gently Packed them and I may have used Pliers to remove them. I am trying to remember. All this is overwhelming).

3) I use the word "seize" as it runs until after 1,000 RPM and then it just stops when I take my foot off the pedal.

4) The last time I attempted to start it; is when I stated it "seized" again. At this time; I noticed that Passlock Security did not stay on. Last night I attempted to read DTC codes again since all the changes on this vehicle and my USB OBDII that I dumped codes from post #9 and it said it could not connect. After this I remembered swapping out the PCM/ECU from a 2003 LW300 and followed a YouTube video to "Re-Learn" / "Learn the Vehicles VIN #" ; the steps taken worked. However I wanted a test with the old PCM/ECU before making any other changes. Last night I carried this out and put the original PCM/ECU back in; I finished it today as the connector(s) are very difficult for me. I have not carried out another test yet as I want to check a couple things to make me feel better.

-- Couple Things to Check Prior to Next Start Attempt:

1) View the Alternator on the wiring side (visual inspection) so that I may be able to determine if I have any exposed wiring since it's difficult to get an Alternator mounted for myself.

2) Rj may be onto something in regards to the voltage loss as I discovered some bare wiring. I am planning to use electrical tape and tape these up before the next test start. * I do not know if the bare wiring which looks like one end crosses over could trigger that code *

3) Double check the fuel filter; make sure nothing is leaking.

4) Reset the Oil Change Button under the Fuse Panel

5) Attempt DTC Code Reading using my OBDII USB Connector again since the DTC codes were erased post tow truck when a Jump done by wonderful neighbor Nichole. This is the same day she seen smoke coming up under my hood while I was in the Driver's seat rev'ing the engine to keep it alive (This was the first time I held the pedal down to the floor to attempt start prior to the Spark Plugs removed, cleaned up, replaced with New Laser Platinums

[BrandonKastning]

Here is a Video of tonight after all the checks; minus electrical tape on my previous plans. (The sun beat me and too tired to even try.)

Critical note after finding out that both

Factory default: 2001 L300 PCM/ECU
and Pick-N-Pull: 2003 LW300 PCM/ECU

failed to read or able to connect. I am almost 100% certain this is due to a fully discharged battery as I have to give it a jump start 30 second jolt from a 700 Peak AMPS / 350 AMP Stanley Fatmax Jumpbox.

I am going to invest in a Drip feeding Battery Charger before my next attempt at starting the vehicle.

I am having a strong feeling that since both PCM failed a read out with the current battery state. Regardless of it's situation there is no live computer that has registered changes, resets, etc.

I would plan to rule out this notion. Does anyone have Saturn Manufacturer Technical Details of the PCM/ECU and it's full code output.

What takes place with a fully charged battery and the PCM/ECU; especially with all sorts of various changes done to a vehicle. Pre-start requirements?

For instance. Service Engine Light = Only displays for *Manufacturer list of Reasons & Corresponding Sensors, etc* -- I feel a list like this must have existed in the Saturn Corporation. I wonder if it was salvaged / saved by anybody.

It also blew White Smoke everywhere that I was able to capture on Video (including a side view from my Apartment window).

YouTube Video #1 - Point of View
02/17/2020

Embed Attempt without seeing Plugin Button for YouTube (using YOUTUBE BBCODE):
[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/9gdIA4g0kWA[/YOUTUBE]

YouTube Video #1 Link: https://youtu.be/9gdIA4g0kWA

YouTube Video #2 - Side View
02/17/2020

Embed Attempt without seeing Plugin Button for YouTube (using YOUTUBE BBCODE):
[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/9gdIA4g0kWA[/YOUTUBE]

YouTube Video #2 Link: https://youtu.be/9gdIA4g0kWA

Thanks a bunch everyone!

[BrandonKastning]

Update: Passenger Engine Mount Re-Assembly Post Alternator Replacement + Serpentine Belt Replacement + Tensioner Pulley Replacement

Location: Passenger Side near the Engine Compartment under the Mass Air Flow Sensor + Air Cooling Hoses

Gallery Series: 5

(Flash-back to After the Alternator Replacement + Serpentine Belt & Tensioner Upgrade + Flooded Engine & Spark Plug Port Cleaning + Spark Plug Replacement with Laser Platinums).

[BrandonKastning]

Update: Passenger Engine Mount Re-Assembly Post Alternator Replacement + Serpentine Belt Replacement + Tensioner Pulley Replacement

Location: Passenger Side near the Engine Compartment under the Mass Air Flow Sensor + Air Cooling Hoses

Gallery Series: 6

(Flash-back to After the Alternator Replacement + Serpentine Belt & Tensioner Upgrade + Flooded Engine & Spark Plug Port Cleaning + Spark Plug Replacement with Laser Platinums).

[BrandonKastning]

Update: Mass Air Flow Sensor & Mass Air Cooling Hoses Re-Assembled Post Alternator Replacement + Serpentine Belt Replacement + Tensioner Pulley Replacement

Location: Passenger Side near the Engine Compartment

Gallery Series: 7

(Flash-back to After the Alternator Replacement + Serpentine Belt & Tensioner Upgrade + Flooded Engine & Spark Plug Port Cleaning + Spark Plug Replacement with Laser Platinums).

[BrandonKastning]

Update: Rear Intake Manifold + Coil Pack Removal & Cleaning + Spark Plug Replacement + Spark Plug Port Cleaning; Post Alternator Replacement + Serpentine Belt Replacement + Tensioner Pulley Replacement

Location: Under the Hood; far end of the Engine Block

Gallery Series: 8

(Flash-back to After the Alternator Replacement + Serpentine Belt & Tensioner Upgrade + Flooded Engine & Spark Plug Port Cleaning + Spark Plug Replacement with Laser Platinums).

[BrandonKastning]

Update: Rear Intake Manifold + Coil Pack Removal & Cleaning + Spark Plug Replacement + Spark Plug Port Cleaning; Post Alternator Replacement + Serpentine Belt Replacement + Tensioner Pulley Replacement

Location: Under the Hood; far end of the Engine Block

Gallery Series: 9

(Flash-back to After the Alternator Replacement + Serpentine Belt & Tensioner Upgrade + Flooded Engine & Spark Plug Port Cleaning + Spark Plug Replacement with Laser Platinums).