2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

[pierrot]

Regarding update no. 1, what color was the exhaust smoke?

[fdryer]

Originally Posted by BrandonKastning

Update #1
02/12/2020

Somehow the water pump plug was damaged and completely unplugged.

Since I discovered this; it has been electrical taped and placed back in securely.

The question I have is; since the Tow back and running it for a minute or so before it seizing without idle ability. It emitted a ton of smoke....

That snapshot is not the water pump or electrical connector to the water pump. You are looking at the ac compressor with the power connector disconnected. At this time of the year, you can leave the connector off or plug it back in as its presumed you don't need ac cooling yet. However, if you use the (front windshield) defrost button, ac is automatically turned on as long as outside temps are above 40F. Below 40F ac is disabled. Lastly, if ac is broken, reconnecting the plug won't matter until warm weather returns and you're interested in determining what broke. This ac power plug has nothing to do with engine starting or smoking.

The water pump is hidden from view - it's behind the black plastic timing cover guarding the timing belt, four cam gears and two idler pulleys. The drive belt you loosened drives the water pump, power steering pump, alternator and ac compressor. The water pump pulley is the only part seen without removing the timing cover.

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by pierrot

Regarding update no. 1, what color was the exhaust smoke?

pierrot,

White smoke sir.

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by fdryer

That snapshot is not the water pump or electrical connector to the water pump. You are looking at the ac compressor with the power connector disconnected. At this time of the year, you can leave the connector off or plug it back in as its presumed you don't need ac cooling yet. However, if you use the (front windshield) defrost button, ac is automatically turned on as long as outside temps are above 40F. Below 40F ac is disabled. Lastly, if ac is broken, reconnecting the plug won't matter until warm weather returns and you're interested in determining what broke. This ac power plug has nothing to do with engine starting or smoking.

The water pump is hidden from view - it's behind the black plastic timing cover guarding the timing belt, four cam gears and two idler pulleys. The drive belt you loosened drives the water pump, power steering pump, alternator and ac compressor. The water pump pulley is the only part seen without removing the timing cover.

fdryer,

What a complete relief to learn this from you! Is it a chance that before I got the car that nobody ever plugged it in?

Great to know that this wouldn't have an affect on my break down!

~ Thanks - Brandon

[fdryer]

The ac system is independent of the engine, relying only on electrical power and engine torque to turn the compressor. If it was disconnected, its anyone's guess why as it doesn't matter. Ac systems in vehicles have pressurized refrigerant whether its running or not. 98% of all ac problems occurs when the sealed pressurized system ruptures, releasing refrigerant gas until a pressure sensor detects the loss and sends a disable signal to the ecm to prevent the compressor from powering up. This safety system prevents the compressor from self destruction and drawing in air along with moisture, contaminating the system requiring expensive repairs. There's one instance where the previous owner may be annoyed with ac turning on when using the windshield defrost button that runs the ac system; this allows dehumidified air mixed with any heat to help defrost fogging occurring in humid conditions in any season as long as outside temps are above 40F. Disconnecting power to the compressor disables ac use in those situations where ac cold air isn't wanted. The trouble is remembering to reconnect it when warm weather returns.

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by fdryer

The ac system is independent of the engine, relying only on electrical power and engine torque to turn the compressor. If it was disconnected, its anyone's guess why as it doesn't matter. Ac systems in vehicles have pressurized refrigerant whether its running or not. 98% of all ac problems occurs when the sealed pressurized system ruptures, releasing refrigerant gas until a pressure sensor detects the loss and sends a disable signal to the ecm to prevent the compressor from powering up. This safety system prevents the compressor from self destruction and drawing in air along with moisture, contaminating the system requiring expensive repairs. There's one instance where the previous owner may be annoyed with ac turning on when using the windshield defrost button that runs the ac system; this allows dehumidified air mixed with any heat to help defrost fogging occurring in humid conditions in any season as long as outside temps are above 40F. Disconnecting power to the compressor disables ac use in those situations where ac cold air isn't wanted. The trouble is remembering to reconnect it when warm weather returns.

fdryer,

Thank you very much for that extremely detailed explanation! Much obliged!

[fdryer]

My guess may be that hose to the right of the throttle, siliconed to seal it. If I'm not mistaken, that hose feeds crankcase gases (oily byproducts) to the throttle. That hose may have dry rotted and cracked, allowing air into and behind the throttle plate creating a lean fuel/air mixture. This may upset how the engine starts and runs. In normal conditions, the engine creates a vacuum while running and any port on it would have vacuum. If that hose ruptured, crankcase gases may blow out and result in oily residue everywhere nearby. If the engine starts and runs ok after this repair and replacing the alternator, is everything ok now?

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by fdryer

My guess may be that hose to the right of the throttle, siliconed to seal it. If I'm not mistaken, that hose feeds crankcase gases (oily byproducts) to the throttle. That hose may have dry rotted and cracked, allowing air into and behind the throttle plate creating a lean fuel/air mixture. This may upset how the engine starts and runs. In normal conditions, the engine creates a vacuum while running and any port on it would have vacuum. If that hose ruptured, crankcase gases may blow out and result in oily residue everywhere nearby. If the engine starts and runs ok after this repair and replacing the alternator, is everything ok now?

fdryer,

That makes a whole lot of sense. The main hole that I cleaned directly to the left of the silicon patched hose you were referring to did have an oil puddle on the bottom right beyond the mass air flow sensor. (This sensor hoses were jarred up also-- I didn't install them correctly; leaving them bent -- I am hoping to secure new ones at a local wrecking yard when I can afford.)

In the meantime, I am 95% done with putting the new belt on with the new alternator and tensioner.

The tensioner is very difficult for me as the strength needed to hold it down all the way while getting the serpentine belt on is causing me great stresses.

I tried my breaking bar and a couple ratchets. I am not certain that my setup will achieve this at this time. I may have to wait and find better tools. Perhaps it will take more attempts.

I will update when I know. Thank you all very much as usual!

[BrandonKastning]

Update #1
Serpentine Belt Installed
02/13/2020
at Approx. 14:59

It looks like I got it on 100%. If something looks off; I will be cleaning up my motor mount before moving on with getting that re-installed and readying the air filter components for a jump start test.

[BrandonKastning]

Update #2
Serpentine Belt Installed
02/13/2020
at Approx. 15:01

[BrandonKastning]

Update #3
Serpentine Belt Installed
02/13/2020
at Approx. 15:03

[fdryer]

Ok, hopefully all repairs results in normal starting, running and eliminating problems bringing you to this point.

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by fdryer

Ok, hopefully all repairs results in normal starting, running and eliminating problems bringing you to this point.

fdryer,

Thank you very much for those detailed pictures!

For some reason I ran into problems trying to re-install the engine mount. I have since separated it and haven't tackled this battle just yet.

I will post updates when I win this one; somehow it seems as if my engine moved towards me during this... uh oh

[fdryer]

Presuming the engine is supported with a block of wood to spread the engine weight on a hydraulic jack, it's possible for the jack to slowly lower and shift slightly from the initial setup. I can't recall the other mounts that support the engine. I replaced the timing belt and my jack lowered a little over a two day period with the passenger side engine mount showing the engine shifted (corrosion marks/clean corrosion free areas under the three mounting bolts).

Take your time and check everything before starting up.

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by fdryer

Presuming the engine is supported with a block of wood to spread the engine weight on a hydraulic jack, it's possible for the jack to slowly lower and shift slightly from the initial setup. I can't recall the other mounts that support the engine. I replaced the timing belt and my jack lowered a little over a two day period with the passenger side engine mount showing the engine shifted (corrosion marks/clean corrosion free areas under the three mounting bolts).

Take your time and check everything before starting up.

fdryer,

Thank you for that! I too used a block of wood on my hydraulic jack. However; without a garage I wasn't able to leave it in one place during this whole repair attempt. I ended up going up and down at various intervals and removing and placing the jack over and over for days.

I used PB Blaster and Gunk Engine Degreaser to clean up the mounting bolt bracket.

I took the three bolts that hold the two pieces together as I couldn't even closely get the part to line up properly on the car part regardless of the way I was moving the part near the engine block.

Hopefully removing the two pieces and installing the car part first; then jacking it up with a block of wood to line it up.

That's my best plan at this time.

[fdryer]

The two piece passenger side engine mount is usually removed in two steps, the upper mount then the lower mount. When the upper mount didn't line up with the lower mount, there are several ways to realign the two mounts; shifting the engine manually by any method including pry bar against the engine and chassis or engine cradle, when at least one hole lines up, starting a bolt to help secure the mount in place then using a long tapered punch fitting into another mounting hole to act as a lever to shift the engine and mount to align the upper mount to allow the second bolt to thread in. Left threaded into the mounts for all three bolts, make final adjustments with jack to level the upper mount to the lower one to allow snugging bolts as mounts mate. Once bolts are snugged and mounts joined together, lower the jack until the full weight of the engine rests on these mounts for final tightening. Try to align the bolts over the same area of the original three bolt markings.

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by fdryer

The two piece passenger side engine mount is usually removed in two steps, the upper mount then the lower mount. When the upper mount didn't line up with the lower mount, there are several ways to realign the two mounts; shifting the engine manually by any method including pry bar against the engine and chassis or engine cradle, when at least one hole lines up, starting a bolt to help secure the mount in place then using a long tapered punch fitting into another mounting hole to act as a lever to shift the engine and mount to align the upper mount to allow the second bolt to thread in. Left threaded into the mounts for all three bolts, make final adjustments with jack to level the upper mount to the lower one to allow snugging bolts as mounts mate. Once bolts are snugged and mounts joined together, lower the jack until the full weight of the engine rests on these mounts for final tightening. Try to align the bolts over the same area of the original three bolt markings.

fdryer,

Thank you for explaining that. It worked; especially after putting the bottom right bolt in first. Then adjusting the jack and block level down until all the mounts line up!

After inspecting everything after the mounting bolts, mass air sensor and air cooling hoses I reconnected the battery. Used a jump box to start over.

I performed 2 starts:

1) Cranked over (more shocked than anything that my 350 AMP jumpbox turned it over without a block to block with this amount of discharge in my starter battery) then seized with service engine light with passlock coming on right after.

* No smoke

2) Cranked over and this time revved a little bit. Still fights to de-throttle and seized with same lights and pattern of lights.

Also no smoke.

-- Next attack at this will be to replace the current (never seen or disassembled yet) the intake manifolds (cleaned up the oil) and carefully replaced the current spark plugs with platinum ones that I have on hand with the proper tools.

I sure hope this is the problem at this point. Everything would run strong if this fixes it.

[Rj 2000 LS2]

Was this last attempt to start the engine with the two hoses disconnected, that I spoke about a long time ago?

It seems you jump for one unrelated thing to another without thoroughly, properly and sequentially executing an isolated test. I must tell you, whenever you reinvent new things and flip, flop and change 10 things at once... you will NEVER find the reason this engine is not running. I've been a diagnostician of complication systems for decades and your methods have got me flabbergasted! It is exhausting to give you specific advice and you discount it, change it, venture onto something completely unrelated enduring maximum cost when the items you are likely touching and replacing are not broken. I am trying to help, but have not heard if the simple test I recommended has been conducted and/or what was the results. We don't have a crystal ball and if you continue to shotgun with an occasional hail mary... how can we possibly help you? One thing is for sure. If you don't get this vehicle running... you can always make some money by selling it for parts! The A/C clutch work? We need one of them.

I recommend you video tape each attempt to start the engine and have the camera under the hood while doing so. Then, let us see what is happening rather than you providing commentary. This way, we are dealing with first hand info vs your interpretations. The sounds, motions and smoke etc... can tell us something.

And remember, "If everything is the problem... NOTHING is the problem!"

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by BrandonKastning

fdryer,

Thank you for clearing up that confusion regarding the Passlock Security mode(s).

After reviewing the Video again Passlock Security light remains off the entire time. (Regarding the YouTube link... I replaced "." with "dot") Since I cannot post links.

I took a picture of my overflow on the dipstick. I wanted to share it here since I have a feeling this is a major contribution to the Service Engine Light that is stuck on at the moment.

If this is true; do you think that my Spark Plugs have been jeopardized; or should I be fine since it starts to 1500 RPM's before it chokes out?

I am trying to decide if I need to replace my Spark Plugs before doing a full oil change with filter?

Thank you again!

~ Brandon Kastning

Rj ... read my last sentence regarding my gut feeling leaning towards spark plugs prior to a full oil change with filter.

Turns out ... The spark plugs were flooded.

I will update the thread when the rear ones are replaced with Platinum Spark Plugs.

Thank you fdryer, and Rj for all the useful information!

God bless!

~ Brandon

[Rj 2000 LS2]

IF the spark plugs are "Flooded", replacing them will only result in the same failure mode after new plugs are installed. The key to any successful diagnostic is to identify the cause and fix that nothing else. Changing the oil is also meaningless. However, NEW is normally always better than USED.

May God be with you too!