2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

[pierrot]

Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2

I am trying to help. Extra oil should cause an engine to stop running. It might leak, but that's about it.

Hmm...did you mean to write that or should it have read, extra oil should not cause an engine to stop running? My engine oil was inadvertently overfilled by a half quart once many years ago. I called Saturn, and was informed that there was no need to be concerned. They were correct and no problems arose from that error.

Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2

I ask plenty of simple questions on this board, so don't ever feel like you can't ask a question. There are plenty of people here that might know a quick answer to a simple question. We are all learning every day!

Well said! Simple, clear, and concise questions often lead to the most useful answers.

[Rj 2000 LS2]

That is some great advice!

This is what I would do to test the alternator. Put a volt meter across the battery and watch the voltage as someone else starts the engine. As soon as it starts, the voltage needs to be close to 14 volts. If it is 10.3 volts or lower... the problem is your alternator is not charging.

Engine sensors are dependent on proper voltage. If the source (battery) voltage is low... nothing and everything will behave badly.

Edit: Let me add, it is not unusual for the battery voltage to drop low while the starter is spinning/working. Once the starter stops, the alternator must be putting out over 13 volts in order for the electrical system to function properly. If this test indicates the alternator is working fine, then look at the throttle system. If the engine runs too slow, even a good alternator will not be able to keep up to supply the necessary voltage needed for electrical system to function properly.

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2

I am trying to help. Extra oil should cause an engine to stop running. It might leak, but that's about it.

I ask plenty of simple questions on this board, so don't ever feel like you can't ask a question. There are plenty of people here that might know a quick answer to a simple question. We are all learning every day!

Rj, thank you. I am just very frustrated and do not handle auto mechanics well. My neighboor helped me jump my car today and I held the gas pedal down on the floor and rev'ed the engine to try and keep the engine running. This resulted in 3 things.

1) The engine ran longer than before

2) The engine started smoking

3) The engine block seems to have tons of oil that must have spewed out when I over-filled after it originally broke down before the tow truck brought me back home.

I am uploading YouTube videos and pictures now.

Thank you all very much!

[BrandonKastning]

Here are the videos:

01-30-2020 - Video 1 - Starting Engine with Gas Pedal All the way down!
youtu [DOT] be/xG84M1XmTtI

01-30-2020 - Video 2 - Engine Smoking - Leaked Oil from over-filling and cranking with my jumpbox?

youtu [DOT] be/D6RQ0UptVPw

Thank you again!

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by floridasl22002

Your car is starting and running. Correct?

If that's so then you are getting the 3 things you need for the engine to fire 1) Gas 2) Spark, 3) Air.

Battery condition these days does affect a lot of the electronics and their function and things can get squirrelly if the voltage is below what it should be.

If your battery is kaput, then in all likelihood it may not have enough power to start the engine or the engine will sound tired trying to start. But it's starting.

Once the engine is running the alternator takes over the task of producing voltage as well as recharging the battery. If the alternator is not producing the voltage output, then it will kill the battery as well as itself. If the car is driveable, take it to an autostore and they can check it. Alternatively, get hold of a code reader that can check alternator and battery conditions. Failing that, remove the alternator and take it an autostore for them to check.

Your V6 engine has a drive by wire throttle instead of a traditional cable. There are two sensors; one at the pedal end and another at the throttle body end. One communicates to the other where the pedal is and adjusts the throttle accordingly. Sometimes these sensors fail and the if the pedal end is bad, the throttle has little idea what to do. Again, because these are sensors, voltage affects their operation.

If you are doing this job totally on your own, you are on a bit of a hiding to nothing. As the previous poster suggested, you need someone in the drivers seat and you need to be under the hood.

As for a vacuum leak, there is what is called the 'cigar method'. Basically you need a cigar (I don't know why a cigar and not a ciggie but there we are). Using a vacuum intake point, the vacuum system will suck the cigar smoke and any leak will show elsewhere with the smoke coming out the leak area. It's a smoke test simple as that.

One final suggestion and that is as great as this forum is for answers and suggestions, everyone is miles away from you and thus online and not with you. far too often weekend mechanics such as ourselves will spend an inordinate amount of time trying to reinvent the wheel and essentially throwing parts at the situation. Those parts costs and your time quickly mount up. There comes a time when getting a professional mechanic to review the situation can be cheaper in the long run. If the car is not driveable, then get a mobile mechanic.

If you are sick and not getting any better, do you continue to research the web and self medicate or do yu go to the Doctors?

floridasl22002,

Thank you for that detailed response! Lots of that makes sense. I do not understand the cigar concept; as I wouldn't know where to put it. And I no longer smoke; So I wouldn't dare try and light one up.

I just posted 2 videos from earlier today when my neighboor helped me jump my car and I held the gas pedal down since I over-filled the engine with an additional quart of oil after breaking down around the corner the last time the car was moving. This was before the tow truck moved me home.

It seems as if there is lots of oil that has leaked out somehow (I am guessing it was when I was trying to fix it after the tow truck; cranking over and over without the pedal down all the way; using a jumpbox before draining the battery to the point of needing block to block jumps).

I will include some pictures of what I discovered beyond the youtube videos that I shared in my last post.

However I cannot post links... I replaced the URL with [DOT] instead of .

Thank you very much!

[BrandonKastning]

Here are the picture attachments of the visible oil that seems to be leaked all over the engine.

However the smoke was coming up from one of the oxygen sensors (or under) ; I am not certain which at this time. I was in the drivers seat. [See Video 1 & 2]

[Rj 2000 LS2]

Yes, I meant to say extra oil won't hurt anything.

Pushing the pedal to the floor will only cause other problems. When you push the gas pedal to the floor while starting the Saturn, this action, WILL shut off your fuel injectors. It is known by some as a way to start a flooded engine. By design the engine fuel injectors will shut off to stop flooding the engine. So stop flooring it, just let the engine start, idle and die.. while you measure the battery voltage etc... or do other tests. Monitor what happens without introducing something new which complicates the diagnostics to isolate the problem or problems. At this point, I suspect there are more than one problem working against you. So you must test only what we say to test.

When I asked you to get under the hood and watch what is going on as someone else starts it... I never assumed you would floor it, "Don't floor it" LOL

I know you are frustrated, but if you do exactly as we say and not add something new like flooring it. Only then can be help. Nor do I want to explicitly write out the exact methods for I feel like I am over the top doing it.

Never take any advice I give as if I am talking down to you. I am only trying to help so is everyone else.

[Rj 2000 LS2]

Originally Posted by BrandonKastning

Here are the picture attachments of the visible oil that seems to be leaked all over the engine.

However the smoke was coming up from one of the oxygen sensors (or under) ; I am not certain which at this time. I was in the drivers seat. [See Video 1 & 2]

Those hoses that are caked with oil is on or near the Oil Separator PVC component I have been talking about for the better part of a month! You definitely have a vacuum leak in that area that is allowing the blow by out of the crankcase. Vacuum leaks do two things... they steal from the intake and the metering of the air/fuel mixture and they allow for air to enter where no air should. All of which can cause an engine to not run continuously. Starting is one thing, the computer knows how to start an engine, but soon after it starts, it relies on heavily on inputs from the sensors to maintain continuous operation. There is a massive leak which is causing the sensors to fail.

I think you have found the problem because all that baked on oil is not right! Something is leaking and stealing from the normal flow. I will be digging deep into this subject when my new gaskets arrive.

Don't immediately worry about the burning oil leaking out of the valve covers and burning on the exhaust manifolds. That is a symptom or a result from a nonworking PCV system and not the cause, of not running continuously.

[Rj 2000 LS2]

I will shorten this to diagnose the actually problem why your engine won't run.

Your engine has a massive vacuum leak in and around the Oil Separator PCV component and/or hoses. This is screwing up the normal air/fuel flow to a point where your engine CAN NOT idle. This is the problem why your engine will not run at an idle, nothing else.

[floridasl22002]

The photos you posted tell us a little but not much as none of us here can see the bigger picture. I would strongly suggest that
1) You clean those hoses up to remove the oil debris, then,

2) inspect the hoses for any obvious damage, such as holes or cracking. The hoses you can see on the photos are held on by spring round clips. If you use pliers or an adjustable Stilson wrench then you should be able to compress the spring clips and move them onto the hose which will then allow you to pull the hose from the engine attachment point. In doing so also determine where the other end of the hoses are. Once you know that, you can remove one hose at a time and give them a real good clean up. You will also be able to determine IF the hoses are blocked.

There is an ongoing thread about the V6 PCV system and it could be you have the same issue. it would be very coincidental, but rather like waiting for a bus, nothing comes, then several buses arrive at the same time. it can be the same with threads.

It is so easy to become overwhelmed with engine starting/running issues and you end up like a juggler trying to fix 10 things all at once.

List the likely culprits such as voltage, alternator, pcv system, vacuum leak and tackle them one by one. Attack the simplest and cheapest ones first.

[Rj 2000 LS2]

Great advice, however, I've been studying the Oil Separator PCV valve system in depth and I can tell you during normal operation those attached hoses should never be soiled with baked on oil. There has to be a massive leak to allow such oil build up in and around that around. If you look at the pictures sequence as he takes closer and closer photos of the same area just beneath the throttle components it is caked full of oil. This is not at all normal and I dare to say the cause of the problem with idling. There is a massive leak and two of those hoses is connected directly to the intake.

(ABOVE) If anything, disconnect the two hoses at the intake for these are easily accessible. Plug both sides (those hoses and where they connection) and start the engine. It will likely idle just fine with these hoses disconnected and plugged. Do NOT think this fixes the problem. If you continue to drive the car with these hoses disconnected and plugged... you will eventually destroy your engine or start it on fire from leaking oil on the exhaust manifolds.

Taking those hoses off near the Oil Separator PCV component without removing many topside engine parts will be next to impossible. If you were able to disconnect those hoses, I dare to say you will never get them reconnected. I advise against removing those hoses near the PCV Component. Do the other end of the hoses like I said (ABOVE).

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2

Great advice, however, I've been studying the Oil Separator PCV valve system in depth and I can tell you during normal operation those attached hoses should never be soiled with baked on oil. There has to be a massive leak to allow such oil build up in and around that around. If you look at the pictures sequence as he takes closer and closer photos of the same area just beneath the throttle components it is caked full of oil. This is not at all normal and I dare to say the cause of the problem with idling. There is a massive leak and two of those hoses is connected directly to the intake.

(ABOVE) If anything, disconnect the two hoses at the intake for these are easily accessible. Plug both sides (those hoses and where they connection) and start the engine. It will likely idle just fine with these hoses disconnected and plugged. Do NOT think this fixes the problem. If you continue to drive the car with these hoses disconnected and plugged... you will eventually destroy your engine or start it on fire from leaking oil on the exhaust manifolds.

Taking those hoses off near the Oil Separator PCV component without removing many topside engine parts will be next to impossible. If you were able to disconnect those hoses, I dare to say you will never get them reconnected. I advise against removing those hoses near the PCV Component. Do the other end of the hoses like I said (ABOVE).

Rj,

Thank you very much for your in-depth analysis of my car problem. I will not disconnect the hoses near the PCV component; and will proceed with your troubleshooting steps to do a rule out of any other cause (such as the alternator, etc). I would have to say that without determining the cause of the oil/vacuum leaks; there is no point to move forward with any other repairs.

I will be getting my bus pass working this month and try and do things without buying anymore parts at this point.

What do you suggest I use to plug the holes once the hoses are removed on the intake?

Also... Thank you floridasl22002 for your advise also.

Best Regards,

Brandon

[Rj 2000 LS2]

If your alternator was not working properly... the engine would have shut off while you flooded it! The fact the engine kept running while you gas it and held the RPMs at 4k... means the alternator is working fine! The engine only quit when you allowed it to idle and it quickly shut off.

You have a massive vacuum leak. I actually could hear it during one of your videos. You can use tape and a zip tie to secure the tape from being sucked in. The same can be used for the hoses. Just don't let anything get sucked in or blown out. I suspect your engine will run at an idle with both the small vacuum hose and the big vacuum hose disconnected from the intake area. I can send you a picture of which hoses to disconnect if you need it.

[floridasl22002]

For every post there will be another post that contradicts that information or advice. As the other poster appears to give contradictory advice to mine all the time (whilst still trying to help) it does nothing to help you other than confuse you as to who's advice is accurate.

As a consequence of that, I will bow out of this thread and let the other poster be your sole source of advice. It will be either right or wrong, but at least you won't have anyone else chipping in.

Hope you get it fixed.

[Rj 2000 LS2]

FL, have you listened to the video he made while he was racing the engine between 2K and 4K RPMs? You can literally hear a vacuum leak. It is somewhere, maybe not at the PCV unit, but it exists and that is why it can't idle because it has way too much air and not enough gas. It leans out and dies. That is what it sounds like to me.

Don't exit this thread because the more people the better.

I based all my previous comments upon info provided by the owner of the vehicle. However, this time I base it on actually seeing and hearing the engine run. When you get mixed and get some what convoluted data... of course there are going to be a wild gamete of possible solutions. We are closer to discovering the actual problem. Don't bail now!

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2

If your alternator was not working properly... the engine would have shut off while you flooded it! The fact the engine kept running while you gas it and held the RPMs at 4k... means the alternator is working fine! The engine only quit when you allowed it to idle and it quickly shut off.

You have a massive vacuum leak. I actually could hear it during one of your videos. You can use tape and a zip tie to secure the tape from being sucked in. The same can be used for the hoses. Just don't let anything get sucked in or blown out. I suspect your engine will run at an idle with both the small vacuum hose and the big vacuum hose disconnected from the intake area. I can send you a picture of which hoses to disconnect if you need it.

Rj 2000 LS2,

Wow! That is a huge relief to read. I would love a picture of which hoses to disconnect. I was just getting ready to grab my engine degreaser and brushes to start cleaning up things regarding the oil leaks.

I really hope this works!

Should I use big zip ties or small ones? I have a bunch of small zip ties. I will pick up big ones if need be!

What do I put in the hose places? I was thinking a potato? Lodge it in there?

[Rj 2000 LS2]

You actually only have to plug the inlets to the intake and don't need to plug the hoses. They are easy to find. Stand on the passenger side, look at the air cleaner box and follow the large inlet tube that goes to the engine. When the metal parts begin, there is a large hose (about the size of your thumb) on the right hand side. And a small hose (smaller than your pinky figure) is on the left hand size. Both hoses go to the PVC system component. Remove the Right side hose by popping the spring clamp off and just pull the other hose off and plug then both inlets. Don't use a potato! Don't put anything in the inlets. Just put a piece of duct tape over the inlets and with a small tie wrap around the end to hold the tape on. Then start the engine and let it idle. Again, this is not a fix, just a test and don't drive it in this state.

The photo below is of my 2000 Saturn and I have the air cleaner box removed to replace my valve cover gaskets and other things. You can see the two hoses you need to remove located directly next to the main air intake. They are located on top near the main intake.

ps. I have the right side hose disconnected. Use a screw driver to pop the ears up and off of the spring connector without harming the hose! Every important not to harm the hose! Use a magnifying glass if you can't figure out how to remove the spring hose connector. I added a second photo with yellow circles around the PCV hoses to remove.

[BrandonKastning]

Originally Posted by floridasl22002

For every post there will be another post that contradicts that information or advice. As the other poster appears to give contradictory advice to mine all the time (whilst still trying to help) it does nothing to help you other than confuse you as to who's advice is accurate.

As a consequence of that, I will bow out of this thread and let the other poster be your sole source of advice. It will be either right or wrong, but at least you won't have anyone else chipping in.

Hope you get it fixed.

floridasl22002,

I haven't disregarded your assistance in anyway. I am very overwhelmed with this car and have been. I am a computer geek and learning this auto man stuff is very new to me.

I am still trying to attain enough tools to be able to even attempt fixes.

I would appreciate if you do comment on this thread as I work through attempts to fix it with everyone's advise.

Thank you again!

- Brandon

[BrandonKastning]

Series 1/7:

This seems to be the culprit - Drenched alternator.

[BrandonKastning]

Series 2/7:

This seems to be the culprit - Drenched alternator.