2002 Saturn SL1 Quill Seal Removal

[OldNuc]

Measure the stroke and if in spec did you wind up the clutch cover before installing clutch? The hydraulics are a single component and replacement cylinders are not advised.

Clutch Wire Test
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...ight=wire+test
How it works
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=183128

[uccoskun]

Hello:

I did the basic clutch test. I run the car, put it in the first gear with clutch pedal in. I waited 3 minutes without any rolling. I did this test twice without any rolling at all.

I could not do the wire test because of accessibility. I might do it tomorrow.

Here are more observation:
1. The problem shows up randomly, mostly during driving. First time I start the car, it generally shifts fine.
2. I can shift to other gears very smooth, even reverse, but it refuses to go into first.
3. I dont see any improvement if i pump the clutch, it is purely random.
4. I almost think there is something wrong singling out the first gear in the transmission. I opened up the transmission but I did not separate gears or shiftier. Only reverse and 5th gear.

The worst thing, I hope to change pressure plate in a day. Winter is coming.

Am I heading to pressure plate problem?

Thanks you.

[ssicarman]

Originally Posted by uccoskun

HEllo All:


I would like to thank you all for all of your support. It would take much longer without your help.

Here is some updates about my clutch replacement.

Yesterday, I put everything together and today I have tested the car to return my rental parts.

During my repair, I changed the Quill seal, output shaft seals, and ball joints. I dont feel good about my left ball joint. Its shaft might be slightly thinner than it is supposed to be. I have tighten the castle nut way lower then the cotter pin hole.

Good thing: I have only one nut left, other wise everything is installed and running.

So far so good except sometimes I have difficulty putting it in the first gear. I hope it will go away. I can feel the difference between my old clutch and new one. I need to adjust to the new one as it engages very low, like last 1 inch or so.

Another observation is, it start to pull right heavily.

And I mixed green antifreeze and dex cool. I''m thinking if I should flush it sometime to put dex cool now.

Again, thank you all.
Ulas

The first gear syncros are the first ones to wear and stop doing their job properly. This is likely what your problem is.

The antifreeze...

Flush the system with water a few times, no antifreeze and then refill with a coolant. A mix of dex and green is not a good thing.

[uccoskun]

Originally Posted by ssicarman

The first gear syncros are the first ones to wear and stop doing their job properly. This is likely what your problem is.

The antifreeze...

Flush the system with water a few times, no antifreeze and then refill with a coolant. A mix of dex and green is not a good thing.

Hello,

I cleaned the antifreeze first.

The shifting problem was not there before I changed the clutch and fluid.

I watched a couple of failed synchronous gear videos. I donot get any grinding sound at all.

Briefly, what do you suggest I should do about this problem?

[OldNuc]

There is nothing you can do about it as new parts are not available. Those videos are also probably not specific to these transmissions and misleading.

What did you use for fluid and what did you drain out?

[cgg17]

We put a clutch in my brother's 97 Sl2 a few years back. Wouldnt shift into any gear but no grinding. We though we messed the tranny up. We pulled 2 trannies at the junkyards and all did the same thing. Then we tried fully synthetic tranny fluid (I forget exactly what it was) and now it shifts perfectly and smoothly. Was very strange, could this be the issue?

[uccoskun]

Originally Posted by cgg17

We put a clutch in my brother's 97 Sl2 a few years back. Wouldnt shift into any gear but no grinding. We though we messed the tranny up. We pulled 2 trannies at the junkyards and all did the same thing. Then we tried fully synthetic tranny fluid (I forget exactly what it was) and now it shifts perfectly and smoothly. Was very strange, could this be the issue?

Hello,

I put valvoline dexron 3/mercon 3 in.

I used brute clutch set, cheapest one on the market (rock auto: #MU520221). they have another model as OEM on (rock auto #MU20221).

I will try measure the fork movement now.

It is very sad that I put two months of time to fix this and this ends up like this.

Thank you all.

[OldNuc]

If you left the trans in gear with the fluid drained for 2 months that is your problem, if it shifts into any other gear easily then it is not a clutch-hydraulic problem.

[OldNuc]

The correct replacements for any year Saturn clutch have been discussed at great lengths on here and the off brand low cost clutches are known to be highly problematic especially in the 3rd gen cars. Luckily the one you bought should work OK as it is a copy of the 91-98 clutch.

[uccoskun]

Originally Posted by OldNuc

The correct replacements for any year Saturn clutch have been discussed at great lengths on here and the off brand low cost clutches are known to be highly problematic especially in the 3rd gen cars. Luckily the one you bought should work OK as it is a copy of the 91-98 clutch.

Hello All:

Here is an update about my problem.

After further tests, I noticed that if i floor the clutch pedal (if I step on it), it is a lot easier to shift into the first gear, still not what I remember though. I can feel an extra resistance in the last moment.

I did the wire test. I got something around 10mm, considering my measurement errors, I concluded that clutch hydraulics are fine.

I decided to remove the pressure plate. As soon as I pulled back the transmission, I can see some pressure plate fingers are taller than the others. I think this is my problem. After I remove the pressure plate off the car, fingers looks very normal.

I will try to get a replacement, even better, slightly better quality ones.

I will update you later when I had chance to put it back together.

Thanks.
Ulas

[OldNuc]

If you want to do this right then buy the LUK clutch and flywheel for a 91-98 Saturn part number 04-115. This one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/LUK-PREMIUM...cAAOxyOlhS9D~W

Either replace the flywheel or buy a new one. The input shaft splines must be cleaned and lubed and the clutch hub splines cleaned and lubed. After lubing wipe excess off with a paper towel as excess lube will be immediately deposited on the friction disk.

You can also buy a heavier duty clutch.

Trans must remain in neutral or the blocking rings stick.

Shifting is likely a combination of things including the fluid. Dexron-3 is only recommended for emergency use by the OEM. the manual used a proprietary lifetime fluid after the first and only change at 6000 miles.

[uccoskun]

Originally Posted by OldNuc

If you want to do this right then buy the LUK clutch and flywheel for a 91-98 Saturn part number 04-115. This one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/LUK-PREMIUM...cAAOxyOlhS9D~W

Either replace the flywheel or buy a new one. The input shaft splines must be cleaned and lubed and the clutch hub splines cleaned and lubed. After lubing wipe excess off with a paper towel as excess lube will be immediately deposited on the friction disk.

You can also buy a heavier duty clutch.

Trans must remain in neutral or the blocking rings stick.

Shifting is likely a combination of things including the fluid. Dexron-3 is only recommended for emergency use by the OEM. the manual used a proprietary lifetime fluid after the first and only change at 6000 miles.

Hello:

This is exactly what I donot want to hear. I myself am debating a new clutch set and I'm leaning towards to get lux kit also. I'm upset because I bought brute flywheel and clutch kit and it is too late for returning them. I was ready to pull trigger to buy a lux clutch kit, now I'm thinking to get LUX flywheel.

I have already installed the same flywheel twice. (first time, I forget to put the inspection plate so I removed the transmission and flywheel to put the inspection plate back. I was doing this job without removing engine transmission bracket.)

Should i really get lux flywheel?

By the way my car is 2002 SL1. The ebay kit you suggested is for 91-98 Saturn. Is it a mistake or a intentional recommendation?

[uccoskun]

Originally Posted by OldNuc

If you want to do this right then buy the LUK clutch and flywheel for a 91-98 Saturn part number 04-115. This one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/LUK-PREMIUM...cAAOxyOlhS9D~W

Either replace the flywheel or buy a new one. The input shaft splines must be cleaned and lubed and the clutch hub splines cleaned and lubed. After lubing wipe excess off with a paper towel as excess lube will be immediately deposited on the friction disk.

You can also buy a heavier duty clutch.

Trans must remain in neutral or the blocking rings stick.

Shifting is likely a combination of things including the fluid. Dexron-3 is only recommended for emergency use by the OEM. the manual used a proprietary lifetime fluid after the first and only change at 6000 miles.

I finally pulled the trigger and order an LUK set with tie rod ends and another ball joint.

Lets do it right and move on. I might sell my replacement brute on ebay if somebody wants it. I will update it if I can install it over the weekend.

Thank you for your help all.

[uccoskun]

Hello All again:

Here some more updates:

I have removed the brute flywheel and clutch and installed luk brand parts.

First impression, Luk parts look nicer. I noticed the flywheel does not have guide pins. I have installed the system without pins.

I run the car, noticed the problem has gotten worse. The pedal feels so soft and I cannot shift in any gear now. It was so soft that I have even suspected that I have forgotten the throw out bearing.

1. I have checked the fork and it has very little play (1-2mm).
2. I run the car in the first gear, the wheels have started to rotate immediately when the car was jacked up and even the clutch pedal was all the way down.
3. I dropped the car and do a roll test: i have started the car in the first gear, it does not roll at all.

I think my clutch cylinders are not strong enough. I will replace them but I'm not sure if I want to spend any more money if it does not fix it.

Did I miss any adjustment during installation?
Do you have any thoughts?
Which brand of cylinders I should buy?Rock auto has LUK assembly also.

Thank you in advance.
Ulas

[OldNuc]

Did you buy the 4-115 version of the LUK clutch? IF yes, it works out of the box. There should be holes in the flywheel for the guide pins, they are required and not optional.

If the plastic tip is missing from the slave pushrod that is most of your problem. If it is present you have air in the hydraulics.

Multiple posts on correct removal procedure for removing the slave cylinder and NOT sucking air.

Replacing JUST the cylinder in a sealed system is not a good idea. If you want one that works go get one from a pick and pull after testing it. Do read the correct removal process so as to not suck air into a good one. Air is almost impossible to remove.

[uccoskun]

Originally Posted by OldNuc

Did you buy the 4-115 version of the LUK clutch? IF yes, it works out of the box. There should be holes in the flywheel for the guide pins, they are required and not optional.

If the plastic tip is missing from the slave pushrod that is most of your problem. If it is present you have air in the hydraulics.

Multiple posts on correct removal procedure for removing the slave cylinder and NOT sucking air.

Replacing JUST the cylinder in a sealed system is not a good idea. If you want one that works go get one from a pick and pull after testing it. Do read the correct removal process so as to not suck air into a good one. Air is almost impossible to remove.

Hello Rock Auto sent me 04-193 (self Adjusting, for 2000-2002)not 4-115 (Push Type Diaphragm for 91-99). 4-115 is not even listed as replacement part. It is all messed up here.

there were no pins in the box and I have not installed any, is it a big problem?

I have the plastic piece on the tip of slave cylinder.

I have watched a YouTube video from AMS automotive about prefilled clutch systems, the presenter has mentioned that if the slave cylinder is left without any load, it will extend beyond the limit and air will get into it. (minute 4 and 5:50 of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=3o5EZzyAS6c)

I think I know what happened now. I havent read anything specific about removing the slave cylinder before. so I'm getting a new complete system from rock auto (LUK CRS002).


Lets see what happens next weekend.

Thank you.
Ulas

[OldNuc]

Originally Posted by uccoskun

Hello Rock Auto sent me 04-193 (self Adjusting, for 2000-2002)not 4-115 (Push Type Diaphragm for 91-99). 4-115 is not even listed as replacement part. It is all messed up here.

Order a clutch kit for a 97-98 car. The gen-3 clutch MUST be wound up or it does not work properly and some are and some arenot. Search for gen-3 clutch wind up and you should find the procedure.

I have the plastic piece on the tip of slave cylinder. I think I should buy a complete system from rock auto (LUK CRS002). Don't buy a new one as it likely will not work either and they are expensive. Locate the proper install-remove info on here before going any further ans your best bet is the Pick and Pull yards. They do not wear out either so it is not an age related failure. Out of fluid and improper removal technique fills them with air which is near impossible to remove as it is in the pulsation damper where it is trapped.

I have watched a YouTube video from AMS automotive about prefilled clutch systems, the presenter has mentioned that if the slave cylinder is left without any load, it will extend beyond the limit and air will get into it. (minute 4 and 5:50 of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=3o5EZzyAS6c) <-- That is BS. The slave will extend to the mechanical stop as designed and if it is not carefully maintained below the level of the MC while this occurs air is sucked in. If the reservoir is not checked full before removal then air is sucked in. If the slave is allowed to be placed above the level of the MC and subjected to wide temperature swings air is sucked in. Slave & pulsation damper must be below the level of the MC at all times or you can find the hydraulics air bound. <--This is all you need to do after extracting a good one and then installing it.

I think I know what happened now. I havent read anything specific about removing the slave cylinder before.

Lets see what happens next weekend.

Thank you.
Ulas

Clutch wind up instructions below and get some pins.

From FSM
Clutch info

[uccoskun]

Originally Posted by OldNuc

Clutch wind up instructions below and get some pins.

From FSM
Clutch info

Thank you. I guess I will push this project to March. it is getting cold here to work on it outside.

[OldNuc]

Spend the winter digging up a functioning hydraulic system and store it with the remote reservoir above the MC with the MC in mouted in car orentation and the slave hanging down below that.

Install the 98 or older LUK clutch and get away from the soft feel gen-3 clutch that must be wound up to even function.

Locating pins can be made from the proper sized drill rod. May also be punched out of the old flywheel from the back side.

[uccoskun]

Originally Posted by OldNuc

Spend the winter digging up a functioning hydraulic system and store it with the remote reservoir above the MC with the MC in mouted in car orentation and the slave hanging down below that.

Install the 98 or older LUK clutch and get away from the soft feel gen-3 clutch that must be wound up to even function.

Locating pins can be made from the proper sized drill rod. May also be punched out of the old flywheel from the back side.

Hello OldNuc:

God gave me a free pass today, it is 65 here.

I have removed the LUK flywheel and put back the Brute flywheel which I have removed before. I took a picture of the LUK flywheel and I will attach here. It shows it does not have any pins.

I try to wind the self adjusting clutch based on your instruction and some youtube videos. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08aYbyejOm4
or the minute 3:05 at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fwgrUkyD6M ) I could not relax the adjustor plate to rotate it and I think my springs are almost at the compressed position. I have attached a picture here. Do you think I should try to rewind again. My pin is at the edge of opening but the youtube video asks it to be all the way to the other end. I have attached a picture again.

I decided to stop right after I have put the clutch in to avoid unnecessary operations.

Tomorrow is another good day, rainy but warm to work on my car.

Regards,
Ulas