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Old 07-08-2022, 09:06 PM   #41
dougbob
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Default Re: no start

Just turned my car in today (7/8/22) to Midas about my car not very consistent in starting. It barely turns, but doesn't start. The engine almost stalls early on when I start it. I had a tune-up last year. Saturn Ion 2 (2004). Bought it brand new on 10/12/04. Almost 128,000 miles. Oil changes every 3,000 miles. Transmission always great. Never burns oil. I drive 70-85 mph on the freeways. Mostly city driving. The big question now is it worth fixing the startup problem? This Saturn is one of the most reliable cars I ever had for a small car. I'm a City driver for the most part. I had a used Saturn before in the 20th century. I'd say the average lifespan of a Saturn for a not so responsible driver is 120,000 miles. The average lifespan is 140,000 miles. You're doing great if it lasts 160,000 miles. Now, the maintenance costs and maintenance frequency is increasing for me, to the point that it costs more than what the car is worth. I'm very close to that crossroads. I'm thinking about turning it in in 2 years. I'm averaging about 7,000 miles per year, so it's looking like this car will rest in peace at about the 140,000 mile mark. I'll find out what Midas says tomorrow.
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Old 07-12-2022, 03:41 PM   #42
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Default Re: no start

Car is running. Tracked down a short to a sensor that I have no idea what it does or how it works. It is piggybacked in the wire harness to the crankshaft sensor. It was only allowing 2v to go to the crankshaft sensor. Unplugged it and car runs great. I can not find this sensor to replace it. It is located on the intake manifold just under the the throttle body.
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File Type: jpg 6CF837C2-D3A7-4F94-B837-35E16EB0BF91.jpg (112.3 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg CF125E15-A375-4438-B3A1-45FD3C4B74B1.jpg (98.3 KB, 18 views)
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Old 07-12-2022, 06:13 PM   #43
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Default Re: no start

Is it a MAP sensor (or similar)? Can you post some pictures that show the full sensor?

I can't believe it didn't throw a code at that voltage range. That was very good detective work.

Below shows s a euro z18xer location on the intake manifold but they have a slightly different set up.

https://www.vauxhallownersnetwork.co...cation.872181/
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Old 07-13-2022, 04:48 PM   #44
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Default Re: no start

I don't have my car here or I would go out and take a look, but the barometric sensor (what's called the MAP sensor) is supposedly located near the right rear wheel. That particular part looks different than the one above also.

At least you got it working which is great. If you can provide the wiring coloring or a better photo of the sensor and its location I'd be curious.
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Old 07-13-2022, 05:22 PM   #45
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Wires are black w/white strip, blue, brown w/yellow strip. It was mounted directly to manifold just below the throttle body.
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Old 07-13-2022, 05:29 PM   #46
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Pics of part. There is not any inlet like a MAP sensor. it looks like a deadhead, But it is to oddly shaped just to be a deadhead. I put a jumper wire on the 2 outside wires and I could hear something in the intake manifold. I assume it is the intake tuning valve.
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File Type: jpg IMG_8013.jpg (18.5 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_8014.jpg (20.6 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_8015.jpg (23.3 KB, 10 views)

Last edited by skamzmc; 07-13-2022 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 07-13-2022, 07:09 PM   #47
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Default Re: no start

Is this the location? I think we see that part at the top of the image.



Another angle from different car. Here the part would be near the right top of the image (we are facing into the electronics jack).


Last edited by AstraFasta; 07-13-2022 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 07-13-2022, 07:39 PM   #48
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Default Re: no start

That sensor doesn't seem to be sold separately if we look at parts schematics for the z18xer:

US Astra
https://webautocats.com/epc/saturn/za2-a/00/za00-104/

Euro Astra
https://webautocats.com/epc/vauxhall/a04/g/72/

I can't read what the M+H part number is on your photo. If you can decipher that number maybe you could find the part on the internet. Else, used manifolds start at $75 on car-part (a lot cheaper if you just go to the yard and pick the part yourself).
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Old 07-14-2022, 10:31 AM   #49
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Default Re: no start

Skamzmc,

Looks like you were correct on the intake manifold tuning valve/crankshaft sensor being tied together, it appears to be on the blk/wht wire. The blue and brn/ylw wires are tied directly into the ECM.

I think the 4th image might be the connector you have in the image above, but there is no other sensor tied into to that circuit between the IMTV/CPS and the ECM.
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File Type: jpg CPS0.jpg (113.7 KB, 6 views)
File Type: png CPS1.png (31.2 KB, 7 views)
File Type: png CPS2.png (134.5 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg cps3.jpg (85.7 KB, 8 views)

Last edited by Astra08; 07-14-2022 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 07-14-2022, 11:07 AM   #50
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Default Re: no start

Astra08 - Awesome research. Those images were so helpful.

RockAuto shows Astra part ACDELCO 93196925. The image shows stamped part "M+H 1024931 S01"

So that might be a "hall-effect sensor" that tracks variable induction position.

Euro Astra pin out function seems a bit different:

https://workshop-manuals.com/saturn/...tion/diagrams/
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Old 07-14-2022, 11:28 AM   #51
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Default Re: no start

Nice job closing the loop, AF. It appears to readily available on Rockauto as 'Intake Manifold Runner Control Valve / Solenoid' for under $50:


https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/ac...solenoid,10776

I can see this problem being something that would be a PITA to address, so good to get it documented for the Astra community as a whole.
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Old 07-14-2022, 12:16 PM   #52
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Default Re: no start

Without the 93196925 sensor connected, why wouldn't the computer notice a difference between the intake manifold positioner & sensor? The computer should at least notice that the sensor voltage doesn't change.

Without 93196925 feedback, how would the computer default. Disable the entire intake manifold adjustment? Run the positioner but wrongly assume the position is (open)?

I suppose there could be an impact on power, efficiency, etc.
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Old 07-14-2022, 12:57 PM   #53
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FYI- similar intake manifold - how it works. The position sensor was removed (or didn't exist). We also see the MAP sensor between intakes 2 and 3; that is the case for some Chevy Cruze and Euro models but I don't think for US Astras

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNfjjECZ4KU
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Old 07-14-2022, 02:39 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AstraFasta View Post
Without the 93196925 sensor connected, why wouldn't the computer notice a difference between the intake manifold positioner & sensor? The computer should at least notice that the sensor voltage doesn't change.

Without 93196925 feedback, how would the computer default. Disable the entire intake manifold adjustment? Run the positioner but wrongly assume the position is (open)?

I suppose there could be an impact on power, efficiency, etc.

Good question. Looking at the schematic, there's a 5V signal to the ECM on the blk/wht wire so it should have had some impact. I can see why the jumper would have worked.
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Old 07-14-2022, 03:04 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AstraFasta View Post
Without the 93196925 sensor connected, why wouldn't the computer notice a difference between the intake manifold positioner & sensor? The computer should at least notice that the sensor voltage doesn't change.

Without 93196925 feedback, how would the computer default. Disable the entire intake manifold adjustment? Run the positioner but wrongly assume the position is (open)?

I suppose there could be an impact on power, efficiency, etc.
This car has always been kinda sluggish on power. seems a little better now that I've gone through and cleaned all the connections and sensors off. I deleted the codes a couple of times. Only one coming back is intake tuning one. Car is still running great. I put another ground strap from the motor to the battery. That solved the hot negative battery terminal.
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Old 07-14-2022, 03:09 PM   #56
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Default Re: no start

Agreed on the jumper. In this case, if Opel had run two separate 5v lines, the car would not have ran so poorly with the 93196925 failure. It could facilitate troubleshooting of the intake runner system too. Maybe 1 line was a cost saving measure...but the consequences were brutal here. We don't see many 93196925 failures but maybe there are a lot that just don't get diagnosed or reported.

If I were the computer noting discrepancies between intake manifold 1 & 2 lines, I would force the intake solenoid into default position and run a default safe engine mapping. That would prevent the longer air passages that improve airflow at higher RPMs. It would also reduce/prevent the engine from optimizing itself. I wonder what really happens.
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Old 07-14-2022, 03:10 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AstraFasta View Post
Is this the location? I think we see that part at the top of the image.



Another angle from different car. Here the part would be near the right top of the image (we are facing into the electronics jack).

Yes, that sure looks like mine.
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Old 07-14-2022, 03:13 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AstraFasta View Post
Agreed on the jumper. In this case, if Opel had run two separate 5v lines, the car would not have ran so poorly with the 93196925 failure. It could facilitate troubleshooting of the intake runner system too. Maybe 1 line was a cost saving measure...but the consequences were brutal here. We don't see many 93196925 failures but maybe there are a lot that just don't get diagnosed or reported.

If I were the computer noting discrepancies between intake manifold 1 & 2 lines, I would force the intake solenoid into default position and run a default safe engine mapping. That would prevent the longer air passages that improve airflow at higher RPMs. It would also reduce/prevent the engine from optimizing itself. I wonder what really happens.

Might be interesting to simulate that with a good scanner that captures live data such as fuel trims.
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