95 Saturn SL1 Intermittent issues on startup PLEASE HELP!

[skateaholic247]

Good morning guys,

First off, I have to say, I am fresh to these forums and honestly didn't think there would such a great resource for my old favorite daily driver.

I had a 95 saturn sl1 that was automatic, sold it, and missed it to death so when it was time for me to find another cheap daily I went ahead and bought another 95 saturn sl1 5spd with 141,000 miles.

It now has 147,000 miles and is running strong except for some weird issues I hope you guys can help me out with.

First and foremost, I have used the search tools and functions, however I want to post a new thread because I don't believe my problems have been experienced exactly.

Bought the car about 9 months ago and so far have done this:

-Changed oil every 3k (While monitoring level since it does burn a little bit so I've had to throw in maybe a quart and a half in between each oil change)

- Transmission Flush
- Coolant Flush
- Replaced Thermostat
- Replaced ECTS with brass tip
- Replaced idler control valve
- Repaired broken rear exhaust hanger
- Replaced Airbox and filter
- Replaced serpentine belt

I think that pretty much covers it.

This is my daily driver, I drive it to and from work everyday about 10 miles each way. Everything was working fine except one day the car was having trouble starting. I had to feather the gas pedal in order to get it going and afterwards the car started, but started a little rough and the rpm's were barely making it past 1k. I continued to give it a little gas because if I didn't the car would just stall out by itself in neutral. I took the car in for service last week and my mechanic said it was the idler control valve and replaced that, but that doesn't seem to have fixed the problem. My car will do this one or two times a day, but at other times it will fire up just fine as if nothing is wrong.

My question is do you guys have any idea what could be wrong? Also, when I have to start it this way, I notice that fluid leaks out of the exhaust, like there's a puddle in my driveway and honestly it smells like coolant/water/dirt mixture but it only happens when my car has trouble starting like this.

After these rough kind of starts, I can pull away and drive and after driving everything seems to be fine, but do you guys have any idea what could be causing these intermittent start issues?

Sorry for the lengthy post, but thanks in advance for your help. I'd rather consult the experts on here first before going back to my mechanic because I don't want him replacing stuff that's not going to fix the problem.

[spacemanspif]

I don't think the water is anything you need to worry about unless you are noticing losses of coolant. Is there any trend with the rough starting (rainy days, super cold days etc)? Does it run real rough while the RPM are "struggling to get over 1k"?

Kind of sounds like you need some fuel system cleaner, new filter maybe, and new plugs and wires. Might have a clogged injector or a fowled plug that clears up after a little bit of run time.

[skateaholic247]

Originally Posted by spacemanspif

I don't think the water is anything you need to worry about unless you are noticing losses of coolant. Is there any trend with the rough starting (rainy days, super cold days etc)? Does it run real rough while the RPM are "struggling to get over 1k"?

Kind of sounds like you need some fuel system cleaner, new filter maybe, and new plugs and wires. Might have a clogged injector or a fowled plug that clears up after a little bit of run time.

Thanks for the reply, the weather doesn't really matter honestly, yesterday it was 70 degrees and sunny, and the car did the same thing a couple times. Also, on rare occasions, I'll be driving about 50-55mph in 5th gear, and sometimes the car will stall out, I know it's about to do it because it feels like clutch is slipping and really "jerky" while accelerating. in 5th gear. The rpm's will drop, I'll lose all power, battery light etc. comes on, power steering goes out so I pull off to the side of the road. Take the key out of the ignition and try to start it again while feathering the gas and boom starts right up.

Also when this happens the SERVICE ENGINE SOON light comes on, but as soon as I turn the car off and back on it goes away.

I'm going to take the car back to my mechanic today, so you recommend that I replaced plugs and wires and possibly the fuel injector? Just want to point him in the right direction even though he's a certified mechanic since you guys are the true experts on this site.

[spacemanspif]

No don't replace the injectors, go to the parts store and put a bottle of "fuel system cleaner" in your gas tank. Plugs/wires and injector cleaner are just the way I'd trouble shoot if it were happening to me...but you left out the stalling while driving info. Stalling on the road sounds like a fuel pump issue. I had the relay die on my 95 that left me stranded. Too much traffic to hear that the fuel pump was not turning on with the key. Maybe you have a bad ground or weak signal or clogged filter? Mechanic should be able to troubleshoot supply voltage, relay function and all that. Fuel filter is cheap on these cars and should probably be done as preventative maintenance.

[skateaholic247]

Originally Posted by spacemanspif

Don't quote me on that, I'm far from an expert. Its just the way I'd trouble shoot if it were happening to me...but you left out the stalling while driving info. Stalling on the road sounds like a fuel pump issue. I had the relay die on my 95 that left me stranded. Too much traffic to hear that the fuel pump was not turning on with the key. Maybe you have a bad ground or weak signal or clogged filter? Don't pay a mechanic to change plugs and wires unless he's doing the labor for free. Its the simplest job to do other than filling the gas tank. All you need is a spark plug socket, extension and ratchet. But its your money...

He's a cool guy and labor is free he said if I still had the issue after what he replaced to bring it back and he'd check it out again free of charge, so I'm just trying to gather some more information from everyone on here that knows how these cars run.

[spacemanspif]

Lol I edited my post after reading your's better but you were too fast and already quoted me while I was editing.

[skateaholic247]

Originally Posted by spacemanspif

Lol I edited my post after reading your's better but you were too fast and already quoted me while I was editing.

lol no worries, thanks for the info, I'll be dropping off the car tomorrow, either way this thing still goes, and I'm pretty sure it will refuse to die all together lol. That's why saturns are seriously my favorite car. I love Volkswagens to death and that's the other car I drive, but I'll always secretly love cheap saturns more because they just refuse to die if you know what to fix here and there.

[fdryer]

Bang the bottom of the catalytic converter to check for loose cat guts - there shouldn't be any otherwise its falling apart and possibly blocking off exhaust flow. The other method of checking blocked exhaust is removing the O2 sensor for a short LOUD drive. Renewed power from the alternate exhaust path means the catcon is blocking exhaust flow - a constipated engine.

Checked fuel pressure?

[skateaholic247]

Originally Posted by fdryer

Bang the bottom of the catalytic converter to check for loose cat guts - there shouldn't be any otherwise its falling apart and possibly blocking off exhaust flow. The other method of checking blocked exhaust is removing the O2 sensor for a short LOUD drive. Renewed power from the alternate exhaust path means the catcon is blocking exhaust flow - a constipated engine.

Checked fuel pressure?

I have not checked any of these honestly so thanks for the info. Upon a visual inspecton before, I do remember seeing the exhaust beat up here and there, so maybe that is what's causing the problem, sometimes it does sound like the exhaust is choking when it's giving me problems so maybe you're right, Based on experience would this be an expensive fix?

[fdryer]

Expensive depends on the problem. Find the problem first.

[skateaholic247]

Originally Posted by fdryer

Expensive depends on the problem. Find the problem first.

bumping this again, because after doing some research and thinking, I think my catalytic converter might definitely be the problem..

I haven't had a chance to look under my car or bang the cat for "guts" because I had already taken it to the shop and it's been sitting there.

That being said, I do remember that area of my exhaust looking dirty grimy and gross, slightly damp with fluids as well. I was reading this on a different site..:

Symptom: Hard to describe here but perhaps as “hesitation”? Either while
running or at idle, engine seems to hesitate. More noticeable on the
highway, pressing the gas pedal the car will on occasion jerk, lurch,
sputter, or hesitate…. It is not continuous, but only very brief and at
random.

My thoughts:
It does not appear to be the clutch slipping. It does engage well, I can
slowly accelerate uphill engaging the clutch with no lurching at that point.

I last changed the fuel filter at 142,754 Km (July 2004). The Haynes
manual suggests the fuel filter be changed every 48,000Km, but I talked
with a mechanic and he suggested every 100,000Km is OK, so I’m about
near that. The fuel pump sounds OK, nothing particularly different than
usual. I have used fuel injector and fuel system cleaners over the
years, maybe 2-3 times per year. I also have used oil supplements,
Bardahl B2, during the last 2 oil changes, (done every 5-6000 Km). I
hear and feel the hesitation from the engine both at idle and when driving.

The injector coils, cables and spark plugs are OK. I have had a failed
coil before and recognize the power loss that occurs when this happens.
This is not similar.

I failed the emissions test in Dec 2008, and got the conditional pass. 2
tests failed for NO, revealing that the catalytic converter needed
replacing, which I haven’t done yet. The O2 sensor was a little lean but
was within spec. The exhaust seems to have no block from what I can
observe, perhaps it’s partial.

Suspension, steering, brakes are all OK.

Any suggestions?

Much Thanks in advance.

Cheers, Roger

After reading this and other responses, this one caught my eye:

My vote is for the CAT.
I replaced mine at 165,000 Miles on my '95 SW1. Same symptoms, and
that loud coffee can full of rocks noise on accel.
If you do go this route buy a DIRECT FIT that comes with the pipe that
bolts onto the exhaust manifold. It will save mucho time and
frustration. Check Rock Auto for the "Walker" brand.

I also have that coffee can full of rocks noise sometimes on acceleration.

I got a transmission flush because I thought that was the problem, but with all of my symptoms being the same and the age of the car, I'm almost thinking it might be the cat. Any other thoughts on this issue?

Cat controls emissions, emissions control CEL, so therefore even when I'm having problems on the highway where the service engine soon light comes on, this could relate to the Cat right?

Just thinking this through and for the first time it makes sense...

[skateaholic247]

Last post to end this thread.

So the root of my problem was actually the ECTS.

I didn't realize I actually went to advance auto parts and bought the temperature GUAGE sensor and replaced the GUAGE sensor NOT the ECTS.

Got the correct ECTS from NAPA, it was made my ECHLIN, and I replaced that this time around. I pulled out the old one and sure enough it was the resin tipped sensor and was split on both ends.

13.00 later, my car runs like a dream with a new ECTS.

FML