SaturnFans.com
saturnfans.com - classifieds - forums


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series Tech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-21-2022, 08:20 PM   #1
d0ugparker
Member
d0ugparker is a jewel in the roughd0ugparker is a jewel in the roughd0ugparker is a jewel in the rough
 
d0ugparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Henderson, NV just to the right of Las Vegas
Posts: 64

2001 SL1
Default 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

I read through this post, about Saturns approaching stop lights and stalling:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=152520
It seems to summarize a lot of my story now, even though it wasn't me, and it was written twelve years ago. Everything changes, but nothing changes.
; - )

Then I read this post about a Saturn stalling issue with this possible PassLock cause:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=124319
https://moduleexperts.com/gm-securit...arn-procedure/
My car is a basic 2001 Saturn SL1 DOHC (automatic) with 190,000 miles on it. It's the simple key, and it was recut by a locksmith with the correct code to accurately cut the key like brand new, so there is no wear on the edges of the key.

Yesterday it stopped while slowing for a light. It sat for a few hours, it started, and I was able to get 90% of the way home before it stalled again while slowing down for another light. It had been able to run for about five to ten minutes. This afternoon, having pushed it home last night, it was able to start again in front of the house.

Cranking just following its stalling offers an interesting clue-let, maybe. At the *very* end of the unsuccessful crankings, as I let go of the key to stop cranking, I swear it *ju-u-u-st* starts to possibly, *maybe* think about playing nicely and start, but doesn't.

I've started getting warning chimes as I'm leaving the vehicle, and it has to do with the ignition switch position not being in its fully off position. I either jiggle it by hand, or I put the key in and jiggle it, and somewhere I feel a spring switch engage, I can remove the key, and there's no more tone anymore. I mention this because of the PassKey issue noted above. I remember someone else mention that his mother-in-law was having difficulty removing the key from the ignition switch, which I've also experienced since the warning chimes started. I wonder if the slight difficulty in removing the key from the ignition is suddenly a smoking gun, but... I don't know enough to know.

As best as I can remember, lots of the usual parts have been replaced:
  • Intake manifold gasket
  • Engine coolant temp sensor (the good one) ECTS
  • Thermostat (the good one)
  • Crankshaft position sensor CPS
  • Plugs
  • Throttle position sensor TPS
  • Fuel pump
  • Radiator

Oil is okay. It loves consuming oil, but that not news to anyone. I had a tech recently replace the AC compressor. Coolant level is at its low, okay level. Plug wires have not been replaced.

The EGR has been removed once in the past for cleaning. The engine was run to blast some carbon. I did mine for a about ten seconds. I read here where others have run theirs with the EGR pulled for a minute. Maybe I should have let it run for sixty. I even did the *two coins* gasket for a period of time.

Weeks ago on about a half dozen, random occasions it was hesitating and jerking when I gave it light acceleration, but not all accelerations. I saw the dashboard *check engine* light would temporarily glow during these hesitation-jerking periods, but no code was ever saved into memory when I checked it—that seemed odd. Certainly it should register something. Ten minutes ago I rechecked the OBDII memory for saved or stored codes and there was nothing. This hesitation jerking reminds me of EGR symptoms others have said they've had.

Can the OBDII sensor and app be running and capturing data while those hesitation-jerking periods are happening? I never know when they're going to happen, but if I run my app while driving and I can get the data I need, it will have been worth the effort. Of course I wouldn't allow my self to be distracted by the app: I'd keep focused on my driving.

I was considering it to be an intermittent CPS crankcase position sensor, it possibly still could be an intermittent CPS, but I'm not sure.

I'm thinking three possibilities:
  1. PassLock
  2. CPS
  3. EGR

What I'm hoping for is to be able to explain enough of the symptoms here to get some ideas on what tests I can do to confirm the cause instead of throwing money at parts and trying to guess.

I've learned a lot from you guys by listening and doing the hard work in the past. I don't expect this time to be any different. I don't expect it to be much fun while I'm doing it, but afterwards, when it's working again, I always remember how quickly I end up feeling like the king of the universe.

Regards.
d0ugparker is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 05-21-2022, 10:01 PM   #2
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 45,747
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

1-Consider a well worn ignition switch as a possibility since the main function of it is to route 12v power to the EFI circuitry in ON/RUN mode. An intermittent set of electrical contacts opening when supposedly closed would open the 12v power to the EFI circuits and kill the EFI system. Virtually every analog old school ignition switch simply routes 12v power to wherever its needed to stay powered up until the ignition switch is turned OFF. A minor issue is that all Saturns having Passlock, not Passkey (rfid technology), have an embedded resistor that's read every time the ignition switch is rotated as part of Passlock security checks. The resistor is memorized the first time Passlock is programmed at the factory assembly line process. When an ignition switch is replaced, the bcm must go thru a 30 minute (diy) relearn procedure, marrying the pcm to bcm and reading the ignition switch resistor for calibrating Passlock security. Each Saturn using Passlock has ignition switches with different resistor values. Simply replacing the ignition switch will automatically trigger Passlock security into flashing its indicator and disabling injector operation. The relearn procedure syncs all the Passlock parts to restore functional security.

The ragged feel of the ignition switch key detector may be hinting of a worn out ignition switch.

2-It may help to measure fuel pressure even with a replacement pump since no one guarantees new pumps forever. My guess is fuel pressure isn't dropping when the engine dies but guessing can be costly when its easier to monitor pressures when the engine randomly dies to rule out a pump problem.
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2022, 08:09 PM   #3
d0ugparker
Member
d0ugparker is a jewel in the roughd0ugparker is a jewel in the roughd0ugparker is a jewel in the rough
 
d0ugparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Henderson, NV just to the right of Las Vegas
Posts: 64

2001 SL1
Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

I started the car, drove around the neighborhood for 8 minutes, pulled over and shut the car off. Checked for fuel pressure, which was there. Checked my OBDII sensor connector under the dash and connected it by Bluetooth to my cell phone, tried starting the car and it wouldn't start.

I'm sure I have the sequence down wrong, but I vaguely remember the yellow SECURITY idiot light on the dashboard at one point while the I was having difficulty getting the key removed from the keyway.

(Great, I'm thinking, I hope this points to the Passlock security shutdown issue being the cause. And no, I don't know how to prove that.)

I sat and waited for 20 minutes and it started up. I drove home, around two corners, parked it, left it running, and two minutes later it stopped again. Is that another clue? I hope so.

1. On the ignition key issue, I found I can pull the key out when in the START or RUN position. If that's further indicating the likelihood that this work keyway is going to be triggering a SECURITY shutdown, I'd like to hear more. If misalignment from the keyway... what do they call them... tumbler pins is causing the magnet to move away from the Passlock sensor and making the car shut down—always when I'm not moving, mind you—I just want to do the work to conclusively identify the cause then fix it.

I doubt keyway cylinders can be bought new, so it means replacing the old, warn pins with new ones. Hopefully a locksmith has that ability.

Is it the alignment with the keyway and the Passlock sensor (I don't even know what the Passlock sensor looks like, or where it is) that's changing during the drive and that's what's telling the Engine Control Module to shut down?

2. The fuel pressure was strong enough to spray all over my hand, darn it!

Onward.

Thanks.
d0ugparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2022, 11:56 PM   #4
billr
Master Member
billr is a splendid one to beholdbillr is a splendid one to beholdbillr is a splendid one to beholdbillr is a splendid one to beholdbillr is a splendid one to beholdbillr is a splendid one to beholdbillr is a splendid one to behold
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,629
Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

Although this doesn't sound like a fuel-pressure problem, I gotta say... checking FP without using a gauge is of little value.
billr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2022, 02:56 AM   #5
d0ugparker
Member
d0ugparker is a jewel in the roughd0ugparker is a jewel in the roughd0ugparker is a jewel in the rough
 
d0ugparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Henderson, NV just to the right of Las Vegas
Posts: 64

2001 SL1
Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

I decided to bypass Passlock, following instructions on this site and Google searches.

I pulled the yellow wire from the Passlock connector, leaving the black wire and white wires in place. I put a 5-something K ohm resistor from the black wire end to the yellow wire end, did the thirty minute relearn:
  1. turn on,
  2. blink for 10 minutes,
  3. stop blinking,
  4. shut off for five to ten seconds,
  5. turn on,
rinse and repeat until the SERVICE and SECURITY lights went out. At this point I'm thinking I have my car back.

So I started the car, drove around the neighborhood for a shakedown test, but it stalled eight or so minutes into the drive. Fortunately I was close enough to home I was able to coast to the front of my house.

Does the resistor value need to be a particular value? Mine isn't matching the list of acceptable ohm values and that's what's got it thinking I'm stealing the car? I think I remember reading that there were limited number of unique values expected and allowed.

I'm researching "bypass Passlock still stalling." I haven't found anything yet.
d0ugparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2022, 03:33 PM   #6
d0ugparker
Member
d0ugparker is a jewel in the roughd0ugparker is a jewel in the roughd0ugparker is a jewel in the rough
 
d0ugparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Henderson, NV just to the right of Las Vegas
Posts: 64

2001 SL1
Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

Answered my own question.

The reason GM required calling in and giving the VIN was to look up the VIN in the list below to match the existing Passlock resistance value to its intended value.

The following Ohm Value should be K-Ohm. 0.402 should be 0.402 K-Ohms. I've already contacted the site owner.




This list in the following YouTube video shows the acceptable range of each value.

https://youtu.be/neW5EfANNlA?t=238

My 5.something ohm value resistor isn't working because it's not in one of the acceptable ranges. *sigh*
d0ugparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine stalls but restarts / P1629 code kristina813 Vue Tech 3 08-14-2014 09:06 AM
2006 ION runs, then stalls, restarts and runs again with no SES indication DoctorKnow Ion Tech 21 05-23-2013 07:09 PM
99 Saturn SL1 stalls when slowing or stopping. Starts after 30 seconds Spectacularbob S-Series Tech 14 12-11-2012 10:02 PM
L300 Stalls, then restarts after a few minutes mvila0909 L-Series Tech 6 08-04-2012 09:43 AM
2006 ION 2 stalls-restarts after a few minutes macsaturn Ion Tech 0 07-19-2011 06:30 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:27 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.