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Old 12-18-2011, 01:06 PM   #1
coolgreany
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Default 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

I have seen a few older threads with similar symptoms and it seems like it's hard to troubleshoot with TPS, EGR, TB and IAC being potential culprits so here goes.

I have manual transmission, 76,000 miles and most driving is commuting 3 miles each way to work (have only done under 4,000 in last year).

Just last week it stalled out on me several times when coming to a stop. It through a P0170 code (MAP) last week but has not returned since in about 25 miles.

Current symptoms are it will dip to about 600 RPM 2-3 times before settling back at normal 900 RPM. It seems to only do this when warmed up.

No recent maintenance except new OEM PCV and air filter about 8K ago, new strut assemblies a few months ago and new plugs (NGK and wires today) and oil/filter change yesterday. I also, sprayed electrical cleaner on the EGR and MAP(i think) connectors today but the dip is still there.

I tried to detect a vacuum leak today by spraying brake cleaner in around the manifold, PCV and EGR valve areas with no change in idle.

I guess the next thing would be to check for the 5V reference going to the PCV or .....?

I'm with the Army in Germany so want to try to narrow it down before order/ship any parts so any advice would be appreciated!
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02 VUE Auto AWD-63k-Florida
02 SL2 Manual -76K, Germany
00 SL2 Auto-90K-failed emissions, Portland, OR
99 SL2 Auto-115K-aging, Portland, OR

91 SL1-Stolen 03, 113K
96 SL1-Totaled 02, 86K
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Old 12-18-2011, 05:14 PM   #2
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

With the extremely short commute and the engine never fully warmed up to burn off any moisture condensing in the engine and exhaust system, you have a recipe for sludge formation unless you stay on top of oil changes. You may have some of this sludge build up in the throttle body too that may be causing the idle air control valve to stick and cause the uneven idle. A simple cleaning by removing the throttle body to have access to the iacv will allow removing the iacv for general cleaning. Then the bypass air port can be cleaned out. The iacv is just two stepper motors to position the pintle valve for idle speed control. The throttle plate is almost closed so the iacv and bypass air port fine tunes idling all the time. A sticking iacv will not allow smooth idling and the transition from speed down to a stop when throttle is closed.

The position sensor inside the iacv can be damaged/shorted if solvent enters the motor housing. Make note of the length of the pintle shaft then rotate it until its fully extended for cleaning. After cleaning position it back to the premeasured length. The pcm will automatically readjust it as long as the feedback position sensor isn't damaged or shorted. Reassemble everything and go for a drive. The throttle body can use a good cleaning too.
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:39 AM   #3
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
A simple cleaning by removing the throttle body to have access to the iacv will allow removing the iacv for general cleaning. Then the bypass air port can be cleaned out.
Thanks - I'll make that a project for next weekend. Would a clogged up TB account for the issue only showing up when warm? Sounds like the P0170 code for the MAP may be a red herring then?

Also, any idea where I can order Parts online for things like IAC, EGR etc.... in case I end up needing to R&R those parts. Should any be dealer only or will places such as Autozone and Rock Auto suffice?
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02 VUE Auto AWD-63k-Florida
02 SL2 Manual -76K, Germany
00 SL2 Auto-90K-failed emissions, Portland, OR
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91 SL1-Stolen 03, 113K
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:27 AM   #4
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

Stay away from dealers unless you want to support their families, rent, sales, business expenses, etc.. Their mark ups pretend to impress anyone that they are the only ones to have genuine GM quality parts. Anyone can buy genuine GM parts anywhere, from the local auto store to any place online like rockauto or even GMpartsonline. The trick is to shop around for the best prices. Recommended OEM parts would be tps' while everything else can be from anyone making the same part. Iacv's can be from anyone as they tend to last the life of a car until unforeseen circumstances determine a drastic change in their reliability.

If you're mechanically inclined and careful, disassembling the throttle body, tps and iacv should be easy and cleaning straight forward. I realize that parts may not be around the corner where you are so only you can determine whether or not ordering back up parts are needed.

Just having my morning coffee and thinking over P0170 may take a few more minutes to think about. MAP sensors can be easily removed and the little hole Q-tipped (with solvent) clean so the barometric pressure sensor can breathe manifold pressures.

If it helps, there's a very recent member with iacv issues with stalling. Extensive testing found his iacv stuck and unable to move to extend or retract, causing odd idling/stalling problems. The replacement iacv fixed it.
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Last edited by fdryer; 12-19-2011 at 06:33 AM.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:22 AM   #5
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
If you're mechanically inclined and careful, disassembling the throttle body, tps and iacv should be easy and cleaning straight forward. I realize that parts may not be around the corner where you are so only you can determine whether or not ordering back up parts are needed.

Just having my morning coffee and thinking over P0170 may take a few more minutes to think about. MAP sensors can be easily removed and the little hole Q-tipped (with solvent) clean so the barometric pressure sensor can breathe manifold pressures.

If it helps, there's a very recent member with iacv issues with stalling. Extensive testing found his iacv stuck and unable to move to extend or retract, causing odd idling/stalling problems. The replacement iacv fixed it.
Thanks, I may want to order at least a TB gasket if I am going to remove that for cleaning correct? Or could I use the old one?

I have seen a thread where it seemed the parts stores such as Rockauto had reveresed the SOHC and DOHC gaskets when ordering (one was a a flat gasket versus an o-ring type?). If anyone has a good online source for this then please let me know source and part #.

Since I will take 1-2 weeks to get a gasket then I may just try to get at the IAC and MAP with the throttle body installed - does that sound doable or should I wait? I did spray some cleaner dow the top of the TB last night but realise this can't do a propoer job. The TBs on the 3rd Gen SL2s seem a little harder to get at then the previous models.
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02 VUE Auto AWD-63k-Florida
02 SL2 Manual -76K, Germany
00 SL2 Auto-90K-failed emissions, Portland, OR
99 SL2 Auto-115K-aging, Portland, OR

91 SL1-Stolen 03, 113K
96 SL1-Totaled 02, 86K
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Old 12-23-2011, 05:26 PM   #6
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

Quick Update - I have ordered TB (both part numbers as I read that some parts suppliers had the DOHC and SOHC ones reversed) and EGR gaskets so I can clean both units.

In the meantime the idle dip has gotten better - not sure if it's the bit of TB cleaner I had put in or the fuel system cleaner in the gas tank or the few times I went out on the Autobahn and got the revs up to 5K.

No codes have shown up since either. In any event I'll give the TB, IAC and EGR the cleaning that they probably deserve when I get the gaskets.
...
02 VUE Auto AWD-63k-Florida
02 SL2 Manual -76K, Germany
00 SL2 Auto-90K-failed emissions, Portland, OR
99 SL2 Auto-115K-aging, Portland, OR

91 SL1-Stolen 03, 113K
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Old 12-23-2011, 05:42 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

why don't you test the map sensor? it takes like 20 minutes at an autozone or one of those stores that lets you rent tools. get a vacuum air pressure gauge thing(sorry for not more technical term) and like every 5 psi you pump it should drop it roughly 1 volt. starts at 5 iirc, and so 5psi and its 4 or so volts, 10psi its 3 volts, etc. had a similar prob and did this test to see if that was the issue(it wasn't)
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Old 12-23-2011, 05:43 PM   #8
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhonky View Post
why don't you test the map sensor? it takes like 20 minutes at an autozone or one of those stores that lets you rent tools.
For starters I'm in Germany!!
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02 SL2 Manual -76K, Germany
00 SL2 Auto-90K-failed emissions, Portland, OR
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Old 12-23-2011, 06:01 PM   #9
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgreany View Post
.... Since I will take 1-2 weeks to get a gasket then I may just try to get at the IAC and MAP with the throttle body installed - does that sound doable or should I wait?
Some members may not realize where other members are posting from......

Removing the iacv or tps is doable if they're accessible otherwise removing the throttle body is better. Whether or not the gasket comes off in one piece is hit or miss. Being far from parts, if it were me I'd try removing the throttle body and if the gasket tears I can still reuse it with some common sense like either making one from scratch with gasket (cardboard) material or carefully reusing/rematching the gasket and hopefully some rtv to help seal it. I'm not recommending this to just anyone except for the person that can adapt to minor issues like a gasket tear that goes to the throttle body. The worst that can occur is a vacuum leak, that's all. Waiting for a gasket to ensure a proper repair is always the best choice. You decide.

Spraying into the throttle body does not clean off the iacv shaft as good as disassembling it for a thorough cleaning. I usually arm myself with everything including the kitchen sink to be sure I have information when I mess up. If I can use a toilet plunger on a car, I'll use it - whatever it takes to fix a problem.
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Old 12-23-2011, 06:43 PM   #10
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Some members may not realize where other members are posting from......
That's true - per my profile, initial post and signature block I and the '02 SL2 are in Germany.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Spraying into the throttle body does not clean off the iacv shaft as good as disassembling it for a thorough cleaning.
Yeah, that's why I ordered the gaskets so I could do a full cleaning - I think the bit of cleaner I did spray in there may have worked a little as the idle only does a single dip now to about 800 rpm versus before where it would go down to 600 rpm several times before settling at normal.

Thanks again for the guidance!!
...
02 VUE Auto AWD-63k-Florida
02 SL2 Manual -76K, Germany
00 SL2 Auto-90K-failed emissions, Portland, OR
99 SL2 Auto-115K-aging, Portland, OR

91 SL1-Stolen 03, 113K
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:21 AM   #11
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

So, since I have three days off over Xmas I decided to have a look at the TB and EGR today. Removed the TB, IAC and TPS and cleaned everything up - gasket appeared fine - BTW it was the red thin rubber bead type gasket.

I also attacked the EGR and cleaned it - it wasn't sticking. Finally, since i have a ECTS spare I went ahead and replaced that as well.

No improvements. As you can see from the video below the idle dips several times before returning to "normal" when I come to a stop. Anything else I should try/check (assuming I don't need any parts or special tools)?

Video of Two Stops Showing the multiple dips to approx 500-600 RPM.

Also, I have a Thermostat on order and I may go ahead and change that as per-emptive maintenance plus the coolant temp gauge just makes it to 1/4 scale (outside temps in 30's F and heat on full). Doubt if this is affecting the idle issue though.
...
02 VUE Auto AWD-63k-Florida
02 SL2 Manual -76K, Germany
00 SL2 Auto-90K-failed emissions, Portland, OR
99 SL2 Auto-115K-aging, Portland, OR

91 SL1-Stolen 03, 113K
96 SL1-Totaled 02, 86K
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:37 AM   #12
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Make note of the length of the pintle shaft then rotate it until its fully extended for cleaning. After cleaning position it back to the premeasured length.
Oh, I forgot to mention, the pintle shaft didn't seem to rotate in or out - the "head" didn't seem to wan to turn but the "shaft" part turned but didn't seem to affect the length one way or the other. Could this indicate the IAC is shot or stuck in a certain position?
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02 VUE Auto AWD-63k-Florida
02 SL2 Manual -76K, Germany
00 SL2 Auto-90K-failed emissions, Portland, OR
99 SL2 Auto-115K-aging, Portland, OR

91 SL1-Stolen 03, 113K
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:07 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

The iacv may be stuck.

From the service manual;

The PCM controls a 2-coil stepper motor which controls the bypass air intake into the throttle body to decrease or increase engine idle speed. The motor allows air to bypass the throttle plate and enter the intake manifold. The determination of how much air is allowed to enter the engine is based on current engine speed, A/C compressor operation (ON/OFF) , coolant temperature, throttle position or if the transaxle controller requests greater engine torque during power-off downshifts, automatic transaxle vehicles only.

Idle Air Control System

The purpose of the idle air control system is to control engine idle speed while compensating for changes in engine load.

The idle air control (IAC) valve, mounted in the throttle body, controls bypass air around the throttle plate. By moving a conical valve, called a pintle, in towards the seat, airflow will decrease. If the pintle is moved outwards from the seat, a controlled amount of air is allowed to bypass the throttle plate. If the PCM determines that RPM is too low, more air is allowed to bypass the throttle to increase RPM. If RPM is too high, less air is allowed to bypass the throttle plate, decreasing RPM.

During idle, the proper position of the IAC valve is calculated by the PCM, based on battery voltage, coolant temperature, engine load and engine RPM. If the RPM drops below specification and the throttle valve is closed, the PCM moves the IAC valve to control speed.

Once the PCM has sought a desired idle, it can retard or advance spark timing to smooth the idle out or increment/decrement slight changes. This operation keeps the IAC valve from continuously moving in and out.

For more information on the idle air control system, refer to Fuel Controls Description .

An unstable TP sensor at idle, varying more than 4 counts, TP counts read on the scan tool, will disrupt Closed Loop engine idle control.

Idle Air Control Valve

The PCM controls engine idle speed by controlling current to two stepper coils contained within the idle air control valve assembly.

By controlling current to both of the coils, the PCM can control engine idle speed by allowing air to bypass the throttle plate.
Attached Images
File Type: gif iacv.gif (18.2 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg iacv wiring.jpg (161.4 KB, 21 views)
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Old 12-25-2011, 06:08 AM   #14
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

Are problems are literally the same. I am glad to find out replacing the ETCS cleaning the EGR valve and so one didn't help. Less time and money I'd have to waste fixing the problem. IF you replace your IACV let me know what happens please!
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Old 12-25-2011, 06:26 AM   #15
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
The iacv may be stuck.
Thanks fdryer, It appears that way as I wasn't able to move it in or out as you had suggested earlier. I was cautious to not get the cleaner into the motor so I may have been over cautious in the cleaning.

I may attack it again today or tomorrow.

In the meantime - any suggestions on brand and source of a a replacement as Rockauto has them from ~ $30 - $140

Autozone has a Duralast Part Number: AC133 for $42 which I heard from one member it works OK.
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02 VUE Auto AWD-63k-Florida
02 SL2 Manual -76K, Germany
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Old 12-25-2011, 01:55 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

Took another look at the IACV today. Pulled down the pintle sleeve to expose the spring but didn't look to dirty. Pulled down the sleeve and grabbed the pintle shaft and rotated it back and forth 180 degrees and there was a clicking sound each time. I was also able to push it in and out and returned it to the previous length (300 mm or 1 1/8 ").

So I either killed it or unstuck it - will do a test drive tomorrow.

Since it didn't seem to need cleaning beyond what I could detect I may just go ahead and order a new one - either the Duralast from Autozone or the STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part # AC61 {#21007019} from Rockauto
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02 VUE Auto AWD-63k-Florida
02 SL2 Manual -76K, Germany
00 SL2 Auto-90K-failed emissions, Portland, OR
99 SL2 Auto-115K-aging, Portland, OR

91 SL1-Stolen 03, 113K
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Old 12-25-2011, 03:42 PM   #17
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

Tough choices. I'd go to the middle ground on prices.

My apology for not suggesting this earlier as I do others here with possible iacv problems; blocking off the bypass hole in front of the throttle plate and unblocking it with the engine idling to see if the rpm's drop, rise and then settle back to idle. This tests the pcm controlling the iacv by first blocking the bypass air port with your finger (or anything that serves the purpose) while idling as the idle should drop down to the 500-600 rpm factory setting of (almost) closed throttle. What you're interested in is when unblocking the bypass port; the pcm already detected the low idle and tries to raise it by retracting the iacv to allow more air through the blocked port. When you remove your finger the sudden rush of air raises rpm's until the pcm detects this and extends the iacv to close off air flow back to idle. Blocking and unblocking the bypass air port forces the pcm to adjust the iacv with the rise and fall of rpm, back to 800-900. A good iacv with a normal idling engine should do this easily. The 500-600 rpm is the factory throttle stop setting (fixed) before the iacv comes into play for the pcm to control idle speed.

There have been a few cases here of a faulty iacv. One recently with the same results when blocking/unblocking - a stuck iacv. Both stepper motors should be operating but if one fails the rpm stays wherever the iacv failed. A jammed iacv shaft just won't move.
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Old 12-27-2011, 10:17 AM   #18
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

Took the car out today and based on the 3-mile drive to work:

Good News: It doesn't seem like I screwed up the IACV by turning the pintle the other day.

Bad News: The idle dip still appears to be there. I will give it a longer run home on athe autobahn to see if it acts any different. Seems like next step is to check inputs from the PCM, block off bypass hole etc.... etc....

Does the PCM need to "re-learn" anything after doing any of these cleanings (TB, EGR, IACV)?
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02 VUE Auto AWD-63k-Florida
02 SL2 Manual -76K, Germany
00 SL2 Auto-90K-failed emissions, Portland, OR
99 SL2 Auto-115K-aging, Portland, OR

91 SL1-Stolen 03, 113K
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Old 12-27-2011, 07:24 PM   #19
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

Does unplugging your IACV and driving have any difference for you greany? for me it runs perfectly fine just idles at 1200 rpm when at a dead stop (800rpm is normal). The dip does not occur when i have my IACV unplugged. I am going to pull my car in the shop remove the TB again and have a gander at my IACV. I will unplug my battery leave it for 10mins and hook it back up to see if it helps any. I will let you know what i figure out.
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:07 PM   #20
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Default Re: 2002 SL2 Stalls when coming to a Stop

Hey greany i have an update for ya. Pulled my TB off again and Yanked on the IACV, it was a B@#$% to move. It does not spin at all and I didn't hear any clicking. I installed everything back on the car, unhooked the battery for about 5 minutes hooked it back up and drove it around for about 20min. My rpm didn't drop below 800 What so ever. The car was just over the 1/4 mark. I will drive it around a little more tonight and check in. I also pulled off my EGR valve just for the hell of it and Cleaned the pintle off. What i did step by step maybe it will help you. I pulled the IACV off the car, completely extended the Pintle, there will be a space between the IACV and the black spring housing (it will allow just a little of the spring to be visible if it is fully extended) put it all back together and viola.
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