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Old 11-24-2008, 06:22 PM   #21
Cortana
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2001 SC2
Default Re: Start... and dead

Just to clarify, if I lock it with the keyfob but do NOT arm the alarm with it (one click on lock) it will still arm passlock?

I only ask because at the moment I don't have a spare key, and I'm the dumb idiot who locks his keys in his car. When I keep my hands off the door locks this doesn't happen
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Old 11-24-2008, 06:34 PM   #22
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Start... and dead

Sorry but I'm not totally familiar with the '01 anti-theft system but generally if the security light is on when locking with the keyfob, then you shouldn't use the keyfob for locking but use the doorlock buttons instead. Carry a spare key with you. I already locked myself out a few times with the keys on the seat and have the valet key on another keychain just in case.
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Old 11-24-2008, 06:49 PM   #23
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Default Re: Start... and dead

i have a key that lives in my wallet. they're only like $2.00 at fred meyer
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Old 11-24-2008, 09:29 PM   #24
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2001 SC2
Default Re: Start... and dead

got home, but it still refused to start, repeating the second symptom of cranking into infinity with no actual starting. I wouldn't find any point on the fuel rail to easily check pressure, (It was dark, and I'm not familiar with this engine's rail), but I confirmed spark using an independent plug. Couldn't check the plugs either (No extension that long handy)

Tried charging the battery, but it made no difference.

We finally got it started by abusing the gas petal and starter until, after much protest and unhealthy chugging, it started. The engine was badly flooded, but after it ran for a minute or two it's now smoothed out and runs normally. No security light the entire time.

I'm letting it sit and cool down now to see if it persists, but since I didn't actually fix anything, I'm not particularly optimistic. And while I can get it started, I'll be eating starters weekly.
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Old 11-24-2008, 11:40 PM   #25
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Start... and dead

OK, here's something only one member mentioned earlier but ignored -ENGINE COOLANT TEMPERATURE SENSOR (ECTS). wrenchturner mentioned it but with all the advice flying around there's bound to be some confusion. If the original is still the plastic one, this may be causing all the flooding and starting problems!? Look it up using the Forum Jump near the bottom right side of this page to find the How-to library. Or simply replace it with the brass one from any auto store stocking it. If you're sure the engine flooded, the only sure thing to make most S-series flood is the ects. This will eliminate the security problem as it wasn't security that was interfering but the sequence of flooded engine and bad timing to have the anti-theft system become enabled, compounding the problem.
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:29 PM   #26
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Default Re: Start... and dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
This will eliminate the security problem as it wasn't security that was interfering but the sequence of flooded engine and bad timing to have the anti-theft system become enabled, compounding the problem.
Flooding the engine and failing to start can trigger the security system? Who designed this thing

I'll pick up an ECTS this week. I'm also going to replace the plugs since they're still the originals, and they've probably seen some excessive abuse through this affair.

I notice the engine temp gauge seems to react normally, bit perhaps there's a dead spot in the sensor, or a different one could be used for that gauge?

Fingers are crossed.
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Old 11-25-2008, 04:44 PM   #27
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Start... and dead

GM's anti-theft system is actually very good compared to the common noise makers that everyone ignores nowadays. Incorporating a fuel cut-off along with a wait period just drives away the vandals while we fume sitting for the time-out!? But it works because this qualifies for insurance discounts in some states. What makes this somewhat sensitive to false triggering, as I've experienced (its all good anyway), is that part of the system uses the action of turning the ignition key to set off a precise set of sequences with several discrete electronic components to signal the body control module of a go/no-go procedure that involves the entire car's electronics before the ignition key rotates to the START position. You'll read of passwords being sent around and compared from computer to computer to allow an engine to run. This takes place in the blink of an eye between ignition ON and START. Once in awhile Passlock stumbles but rarely and most likely not typical scenarios GM envisioned when their anti-theft system was first put out in their flagship model, the Corvette, using the resistor in the key. We have better versions of this that ultimately ends at the transponder device similar to Mobil's SPEEDPASS, E-Z PASS, etc., no-key needed to insert for ignition
starting - a proximity circuit able to detect a subminiature device (the chip-in-the-key) incapable of reproduction. You described two different problems, one triggering the anti-theft system that required the 10-minute time out and the other a flooding incident but the 10-minute incident probably had flooded the engine too. The ects seems to be the common point from a flooded engine situation. Hopefully the ects replacement will fix the flooding starting problem and eliminate the false anti-theft situation. They aren't tied together but twisting the ignition key several times in quick succession can conceiveably enable the anti-theft system, forcing the mandatory time out. Although this may be a stretch, worn components may play into the ignition parts that are used for the anti-theft system; Hall effect sensors. They're not serviceable and usually wholesale replacement of the ignition assembly would be needed if the anti-theft system interferes with normal starting. No one has posted yet of worn anti-theft components.
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:46 PM   #28
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2001 SC2
Default Re: Start... and dead

I've not put the ECTS in yet (Waiting for tomorrow so the engine is nice and cool), but passlock kicked in again, this time I caught it before even starting the car. The previous start was trouble free, so it looks like the problem with passlock isn't related to the other starting issue.

Is there any way to find out what sensor is pissing off passlock? I'm also curious as to why it's preventing the start, but I never hear the alarm go off.

In the mean time, I'll just try to remember not to use the key fob
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Old 11-26-2008, 08:50 PM   #29
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Default Re: Start... and dead

Normally, Passlock is fully enabled with the horn and lights flashing when its meddled/tampered with, either by us (inadvertently) or a thief trying to steal the car. There's provision to overide some functions like I did to mine by disabling the horn chirping to let me know the system's armed/disarmed. I don't know if this applies to disabling the horn when the alarm triggers, leaving only the flashing lights so this may be a hint of another problem in the BCM. I'm assuming the horn works? If you have the owner's manual, review it for better information on Passlock or search around here for the information.

GM's Passlock anti-theft system is intertwined so deeply in the electronics that its almost impossible to bypass completely. On the other hand there are aftermarket and factory remote start systems that deliberately bypass Passlock (temporarily) for the express purpose of not having to have a key inserted into the ignition switch and turning it to start the engine but done remotely with the electronics version of jury rigging. Such is the spoiled life some of us have. Most of the moving parts that's external to the BCM, where Passlock resides, is in the ignition switch surrounding it and can conceiveably become misaligned from possible wear but that's stretching the imagination as I'm sure GM had long term use in mind when designing the system to incorporate specific mechanical/electrical synchronization in the simple act of turning the ignition switch that simultaneously disables Passlock, providing all electrical/electronic communications is intact when the equivalent of encryption/decryption takes place with the ECM, BCM, and TCM before the starter is powered up.

When the anti-theft system disables the car from running, the fuel pump signal is diabled/prevented from allowing the fuel pump to operate. You'll still hear the fuel pump run for the 2-3 seconds if pausing between ON/RUN and START but electronically removing the fuel signal effectively stops the engine from running if no fuel pressure is available to the injectors. Some versions of Passlock also disables the injectors too, making this a double knockout preventing the common vandal from stealing the car. Because the engine is electronically controlled, what better way to kill the engine than to disable some electronic signals in the appropriate places with little fanfare and then turn on the horn and flash the lights for all to see and hear? Its already been done by the better aftermarket alarm systems so GM saw the need to make this an in-house system, denying the aftermarket industry another foothold in vehicle security. If the demand is there GM will step up to the plate. This type of sophistication requires extensive attention to detail in order to market this anti-theft system for every possible environmental hazard. From 30, 40 below zero to 150F desert temps.

To sum it all up, the weak link with Passlock may be the ignition switch hardware related to the sensors there and may simply require you to replace the ignition key with a genuine Saturn one cut from the dealer based on the VIN and some formal proof of vehicle ownership. Its been suggested often to buy the replacement from Saturn and not at Lowe's or Home Depot as the ignition cylinder is subject to the normal everyday wear and tear of hanging 25lbs of keys on a single keyring, effectively misaligning the ignition cylinders.
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Old 12-01-2008, 02:06 PM   #30
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2001 SC2
Default Re: Start... and dead

I replaced the ECTS, the old one didn't look physically bad, just scorched... but the car idle is much more stable and predictable now, so I'm guessing the old one was defective regardless.

The alarm issue is still out there, I'm going to try and short the door sensor (so it never thinks the drivers side door is open) and seeing if the problem persists. That's the only sensor I've touched since this started, so I can only assume that it's the most likely culprit.

I noticed something odd though, the ECTS connector has already been replaced. I bought the car at 73k, I can only wonder what would merit this connector's replacement at such an early life. Between that and the numerous cut/missing grounds, I really wonder about the "clean" history of this car sometimes
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:04 PM   #31
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Default Re: Start... and dead

If the connections on that ECTS connector are not soldered that could also be part of your problem.
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Old 12-01-2008, 05:10 PM   #32
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2001 SC2
Default Re: Start... and dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
If the connections on that ECTS connector are not soldered that could also be part of your problem.
Soldered, and covered with heat-shrink tube. The connector was also nice and clean.
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