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Old 02-09-2019, 04:10 PM   #1
Cartell
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Default Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

Hello,

Haven't done much fixing on my car lately, and not sure if the mechanic is competent. It's been really cold in LA the last could of weeks, and when I tried to start it one day all it did was click once, though tried a few times. The bell still went on for seatbelt, etc.

I did have problems starting it a couple of months ago but after a lot of driving in a week, it went away.

I assumed it was the starter.. He quoted me $700 for oil change, fuel filter (not sure I need it, but it's never been changed according to the records I have) starter, and full tune-up.

I thought it would be done yesterday, but now he says Monday, "because I didn't realize how hard the starter was on your car to get to."

And now he says the battery is pretty bad - that the new starter is draining it, and that's why the starter went bad - and that a need a new battery, whichj is 8 years old. For another $150.

I'm wondering if maybe he did something wrong and wrecked the battery when he installed the "very hard" starter. Now I feel ripped off. Shouldnt he have tested the battery before he put in a starter ? Is that protocol?

Any advice welcome. This is very expensive.
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Old 02-09-2019, 04:16 PM   #2
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

Wow did he see your money coming into his pocket!!!
YAH, if he were honest, he would have FIRST tested the battery, and if indeed it's 8 years old, he would have replaced it. Sure a good AGM battery will cost you plenty, but this $700 bill is outrageous.

Take your car to autozone, advance auto or what ever you have where you live. They will: test the battery & alternator, and for FREE, replace the battery while you wait a few minutes.

Don't ever go back to that mechanic, and if he is a relative, just smile at him during family gatherings, but keep your hand on you wallet while he is nearby.

dbelectrical, they sell a great starter for your car, $38.40 with free 2-day shipping from Tennessee.
https://www.dbelectrical.com/starter...ive/saturn/sl/.

OR if you prefer Ebay for $31.88 and free shipping from California:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-S...~4Dv:rk:7:pf:0

And by the way, our starters are actually far easier than other cars.
45 minutes if you have never done one, probably 15 minutes if you already have it up on ramps and have experience.

Last edited by toggenburg; 02-09-2019 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 02-09-2019, 04:51 PM   #3
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

I agree that it is a fairly easy starter to change, if you have mechanical skill.

Disagree, though, about wasting money on an AGM battery. You can get a standard "wet" battery for under $100 that will work fine for 5-10 years. I don't know whether "LA" means Louisiana or Los Angeles, but expect you don't get terribly cold weather no matter which.
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Old 02-09-2019, 07:44 PM   #4
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

The starter is very easy to change. I had my teenager do the last two.
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Old 02-09-2019, 10:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

Starters are pretty easy to change, on these cars. I did three starter swaps(two bad JY units in the same day), in less than an hour.

I prefer JY units, myself. I see no issues, and many compliments with the rebuilt, DB Electrical units from the members here.

Now, you want to discuss a starter, that will give you a $600+ parts/labor/taxes bill????

Go buy any GM brand of vehicle, that has either the 4.0L "ShortStar", 32-valve, DOHC V8(these were exclusive to the '95-'02 Oldsmobile Aurora), or the 4.6L, 32-valve, DOHC NorthStar Cadillac V8.(1994-2008ish Cadillacs, some Pontiac Grand Prix models, and a few Buick models used this boat anchor on higher trim packages).

THAT starter replacement bill will make you want to scrap your car, and buy a Saturn S-Series in a heartbeat.
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Old 02-10-2019, 07:22 PM   #6
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

Thanks so much, everyone. I'll keep this tab open and talk to him tomorrow.

I called Firestone for quotes on tune-up and starter and fuel filter, and they were more. LA = Los Angeles! Get this: Firestone tells me they can't diagnose any car older than 96 now, so won't guarantee the work. But he gave me quotes anyway.

From hearing the actual price of the starter I'm definitely going to complain to my guy about that. And ask if he tested the battery first. And find out what the "difficulty" was.
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Old 02-10-2019, 08:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

Cartell, what you read here must be taken with some facts to balance what repair shops charge. The major differences in costs between what's discussed here among diyers performing their own repairs and shop charges are hourly labor rates, markup on parts costs and experience/expertise. Marked up parts costs take into account either the part is brought to a shop or someone from the shop makes the drive to the local parts distributor to get parts. Time is money so anyone relying on repairs shops are charged overhead costs for time and labor. Marked up parts are legal - everyone pays more for dealer parts not because of using OEM parts but that they can charge more despite anyone finding the same parts for much lower cost. Dealers asked why this is so and the reply can be either "That's because we use genuine GM parts" (ignoring the fact that anyone can buy the same part anywhere at lower cost) or "Take it leave it" as dealers will not budge on parts costs unless a holiday discount occurs. And even then, all dealers work on the retail price, discounting only from the high retail parts price. Most parts distributors do not charge retail but lower to pass on savings to anyone. It simply pays to shop when performing diy repairs. Hourly labor rates from repairs shops vary and usually lower than dealer rates. Why? Dealers only work on their brands with mechanics/tech trained only on their brand and models so they can charge higher labor rates based on supposedly better expertise. Repair shops rely on each mechanic's abilities to know general principles of how engines, xmissions, electrical and electronic systems work while having access to factory service manuals for specific info on any vehicle they accept for repairs. Not many repairs shops are experts on every brand and model from every manufacturer so may charge less hourly rates because they may have to swallow some repairs that are more difficult that aren't their bread and butter repairs like draining and replacing coolant, water pumps, oil changes, fuel and oil filters, etc. The easy stuff. It takes more skills now compared to older cars without EFI systems and electronics running many things in our cars. Experience and expertise means more turnovers for more profit on repairs in a well run shop compared to shops unable to figure out a fuse blew and applies the "throw parts at a problem and hope for a quick fix while charging customers for ineptitude when a problem isn't fixed with return for more "fixes". It's business, nothing personal. Diyers save on inept repairs shops, marked up parts costs and hourly labor rates but must be able to perform the same diagnostic and troubleshooting to arrive at the same conclusion professional services are paid to do. The price for expertise is included in repair shop bills. If you can't figure out what's wrong with your car/truck/suv, you're paying for expertise to find the problem with a timely repair. Diyers have all the time in the world to repair their vehicle if they have a second car for daily use. Try considering why costs are high for repairs and not just comparing a part charged by repair shops against the same part bought thru discount places. There's more to repair shops and dealers than explained everyday.

I am not affiliated with any vehicle repair business or work for for a dealer or repair shop. I do my own repairs to keep money in my wallet and have the tools collected over the years to allow repairs with proper equipment. It helps that I have an interest in mechanical, electrical and electronics to wade into car repairs. Not many are interested so they rely on good repair shops and dealers but pay for these services while diyers learn the skills to perform the same repairs to save on overall costs.

The lowest cost starter may not be what a repair shop buys. Diyers save on personal shopping, zero labor rates and overhead costs of running a business to pay for heating, lighting, tools, real estate, expertise when working in the street, driveway or home garage.

Last edited by fdryer; 02-10-2019 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 02-11-2019, 02:19 AM   #8
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

I live in Michigan. We have several Saturns. Some are in unheated garages.


We have had cold starts down to -20f. None have ever failed starting. No jump starts have been needed. I have had a SC2 sit 18 months - 12 months without a charge , and the car started.

ALL our cars run the 550 cranking amp battery from Wal-Mart.

$49 + core.

They last 4-5 years.


...

We also use the same batteries in the house (x6) for our battery bank to run an inverter during power outages.


I dunno what you' re getting for $100.
...
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:01 PM   #9
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

To finish off this, now he says it was the fuel filter that was hard to get to, not the starter, so maybe I got that wrong. He says it took so long he didn't make money on this job. He says he did test the starter first...

And he practically guaranteed that the battery will give out any time. So not sure if I trust that he tested that correctly.

He gets annoyed when I say I got advice from the Saturn forum, but I don't care. I trust you guys!

I am very fond of this car and don't want to give it up ever. Wish the mileage was better... But there's always Uber, when I sign up for it.
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

The fuel filter was easy to swap too. Had I known I would have done it long ago. You need a new mechanic if you want to keep the car!
...
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:30 PM   #11
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

^^^ +1
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:54 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

Cartell, what mileage do you get, and what are your routine driving routes like?
Short runs, expressway backups, crawling & lots of idling, high speed, wide open spaces....?
Look, the guy at least did do a tuneup on the car, and hopefully, he did not use anything but old fashioned copper core plugs... so, maybe after this is all done, you will see fuel mileage improvement?
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartell View Post
Hello,

Haven't done much fixing on my car lately, and not sure if the mechanic is competent. It's been really cold in LA the last could of weeks, and when I tried to start it one day all it did was click once, though tried a few times. The bell still went on for seatbelt, etc.

I did have problems starting it a couple of months ago but after a lot of driving in a week, it went away.

I assumed it was the starter.. He quoted me $700 for oil change, fuel filter (not sure I need it, but it's never been changed according to the records I have) starter, and full tune-up.

I thought it would be done yesterday, but now he says Monday, "because I didn't realize how hard the starter was on your car to get to."

And now he says the battery is pretty bad - that the new starter is draining it, and that's why the starter went bad - and that a need a new battery, whichj is 8 years old. For another $150.

I'm wondering if maybe he did something wrong and wrecked the battery when he installed the "very hard" starter. Now I feel ripped off. Shouldnt he have tested the battery before he put in a starter ? Is that protocol?

Any advice welcome. This is very expensive.
If you had this work done, please crawl under, take and post pics of the new starter and fuel filter to show work was actually done. Park one side of the car on a high curb and slide under with cardboard, much safer than jacking the car up then crawling under. Starter is on passenger side rear of the engine. Fuel filter in front of driver's side rear tire.
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:13 AM   #14
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverblu02SL2 View Post
Fuel filter in front of driver's side rear tire.
The fuel filter for pre-1998 is in a different location. Best way to get to it is through the driver front tire splash guard / fender liner

fetchitfido' post shows roughly where it is in relation to the engine (1997 and earlier), bottom of this thread. You can trace the fuel lines back from the engine
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho....php?p=2285894

there's a few pics in this thread
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...uel+filter+mod
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Old 02-14-2019, 05:09 PM   #15
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by toggenburg View Post
Cartell, what mileage do you get, and what are your routine driving routes like?
Short runs, expressway backups, crawling & lots of idling, high speed, wide open spaces....?
Look, the guy at least did do a tuneup on the car, and hopefully, he did not use anything but old fashioned copper core plugs... so, maybe after this is all done, you will see fuel mileage improvement?
Maybe I will! At least I can feel that the tires are more bouncy. Seems a little rough while idling, though.

I almost always drive at night, mostly straight freeway, about 15 or 20 on freeway, so I guess that's short. (and at night I get much less air/smog pollution as a side benefit.) Very little time in backups.
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Old 02-15-2019, 10:11 AM   #16
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartell View Post
Maybe I will! At least I can feel that the tires are more bouncy. Seems a little rough while idling, though.

I almost always drive at night, mostly straight freeway, about 15 or 20 on freeway, so I guess that's short. (and at night I get much less air/smog pollution as a side benefit.) Very little time in backups.
Vibration at idle is likely due to worn motor/transmission mounts (4 of them). The main one resulting in cabin vibration is the upper motor mount on the passenger side. If you can insert a pen between the rubber and the metal then it is considered end of life. The other mounts contribute to advanced wear on the upper mount so it is best to replace them in sets if you can.

I see you have a 91 model. That is a unique year and you'll have a hard time finding a replacement upper motor mount. They are unicorns by now and you're best bet is to find a good used one.
...
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Old 02-15-2019, 11:59 AM   #17
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

somehow while skimming through, missed that the car is a '91.

Your car has a very different mount system in front

There is no top mount (or rather, it is some kind of shock absorber looking thing
http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...-mount/cat/500

http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...-mount/cat/500

http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...-mount/cat/650
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Old 02-15-2019, 12:54 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

Here's a link to the engine mount system for the 91 and the accompanying diagram from that site....

https://www.gmpartsonline.net/auto-p...-mounting-scat


...
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Old 02-15-2019, 04:26 PM   #19
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Default Re: Is the starter on 1991 SL-2 hard to get to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartell View Post
Thanks so much, everyone. I'll keep this tab open and talk to him tomorrow.

I called Firestone for quotes on tune-up and starter and fuel filter, and they were more. LA = Los Angeles! Get this: Firestone tells me they can't diagnose any car older than 96 now, so won't guarantee the work. But he gave me quotes anyway.

From hearing the actual price of the starter I'm definitely going to complain to my guy about that. And ask if he tested the battery first. And find out what the "difficulty" was.
Firestone can't hook up a diagnostic scanner to any U.S. vehicle, that was produced before 1996, because they are OBD-I.

A GM Tech-II, or a very expensive Snap-On scanner must be used for ALL GM vehicles produced between 1982-1995 models years, with OBD-I computer systems.

Hooking up the scanner they have, with an OBD-I system and the engine running, will fry the PCM.
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