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Old 01-03-2003, 11:47 AM   #1
pkuptrk
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Question oil consumption

Well i just tried the mmo piston soak.I'm thinking the rings have got to be half way alright because there was mmo still on top of the pistons even after overnight around16 hours anyway.Hard to start at first but then fired up.Smoked like a gin mill and then calmed down a bit.Its at the point now where it doesn't smoke while in idle, just when you give it gas.I'll see how it goes and give an update. Thanks for the idea guys.
Mike
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Old 01-03-2003, 12:18 PM   #2
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Default alternate piston soak procedure

This may be premature, but I'm posting it for the desperate.

A few of us Saturn owners on bobistheoilguy.com have been attacking the oil burning problem from several different angles. Someone there pointed out that Saturn engines must have pistons that have no (or inadequate) oil drain holes around the piston rings, so that oil (regular or synthetic) gets in there and bakes. This combined with low tension = stuck rings.

I sat up and took notice when he said this, because a couple people here have mentioned that. Anyway, this person had experience with other such "shaker-type" engines (as he called them, for some reason), and said he was almost certain he could provide a solution.

His solution was principally the same as an MMO piston soak, but instead of MMO, use Berryman's B-12 Chemtool.

One of us tried it with a 4-hour soak, and has reported a drastic reduction in oil-usage with 500 miles on the odometer. I did a 7-hour soak and *believe* I have seen a reduction, although it's really too soon to tell -- only 350 miles since I did it.

Here's the thing: as anyone who has handled it knows, this B-12 is NASTY stuff. It will eat the paint off of anything, and will melt plastic and rubber. Because of this, you do NOT want to actually run it in the crankcase (in my opinion). I waited until the car was cold, then pulled the plugs and put 2 ounces in each cylinder. I let this sit for 4 hours, and then stuffed paper towels over the spark plug holes and cranked the engine a few times to splash out as much as I could. You wouldn't believe the crap that came out of there. Then, I put another ounce in each cylinder (the theory being that if any of the pistons had been really low in the cylinder, chances are they'd be repositioned better for a second go-around). I let this sit an additional 3 hours. Then, I cranked the engine a few more times with the plugs out (and towels over the holes!). Next, I drained the oil -- I would NOT start the car with that stuff floating around in the oil! I let the oil drain until I'd gotten as much as I possibly could out, and put a new filter on. Then, I filled it with fresh oil, and put in new plugs.

Here's the thing that really freaked me out: It took me 7 or 8 tries to get the car started after that. When it did finally catch, it ran rough for about a second, and then smoothed right out. Also, no smoke out the tailpipe as in an MMO soak. That was about 350 miles and 5 days ago, and the car runs better than ever. My mileage is up, the idle is nice and smooth, and as I said, oil consumption *seems* to have dropped.

THe person who suggested the procedure insists on 3 separate applications: I'm not sure I'm willing to go that route yet, since this stuff is so potent. However, if the consumption is really cut, I may just try it again to see if I can really kick it in the pants.

I tried the MMO soak twice with no results. I'm not discounting the MMO soak: I think it does the same thing, but is far less aggressive -- I think it just depends on how bad the rings are carboned up. I also tried a bunch of stuff that you add to the crankcase, including several cleaners and and several engine flushes. My theory is, cleaners can't clean what they can't get to. In other words, in most engines with adequate oil drainage around the ring pack, the cleaners can flow in and around the rings with the oil and eventually free them, whereas in our engines the cleaners just can't get there in enough volume to really do the work they need to do.
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Old 01-03-2003, 04:08 PM   #3
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I am the guy with the 500 miles after the procedure, wife has a short drive to work, and so far the burning seems to have stopped. Did the same thing as Kevin but I also did put the recommended dose in the oil and let it idle 5 minutes. I immediately drained the oil and put in new oil to help prevent the seals from getting dried out. I believe this did work and if the car begins to burn again I will do a second dose. Good luck everyone. Have also tried the MMO a few times with no results and gentle engine cleaners that had no effect .
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Old 01-03-2003, 04:54 PM   #4
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by cbvrf3
I am the guy with the 500 miles after the procedure, wife has a short drive to work, and so far the burning seems to have stopped. Did the same thing as Kevin but I also did put the recommended dose in the oil and let it idle 5 minutes. I immediately drained the oil and put in new oil to help prevent the seals from getting dried out. I believe this did work and if the car begins to burn again I will do a second dose. Good luck everyone. Have also tried the MMO a few times with no results and gentle engine cleaners that had no effect .
Sorry Chris, somehow I forgot that you haunted this board as well! You put some right in the crankcase, eh? Since you tried it with no ill effects, maybe I'll do the same before my next oil change.
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Old 01-03-2003, 05:04 PM   #5
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hmm, since the rest of the bobistheoilguy.com crew is here I fugure I should probably say something too. In some situations, depending on how bad the rings are, auto-rx works. auto-rx is the gentle cleaner chris was talking about. It did seem to cut back the consumption a bit. I'm getting ready to try the B-12 soak myself and hopefully I'll get the problem licked once and for all. The H.E.S.T. package berrymanproducts uses is realy tough. The ingredients include:

Mineral spirits 6.9 cal/cm.
Petroleum distillates 6.9 cal/cm.
Acetone 9.9 cal/cm.
Methanol 14.5 cal/cm.
Methyl Ethyl Ketone 9.3 cal/cm.
2-Butoxyethanol 9.5 cal/cm.
Xylene 8.8 cal/cm.
Hexane 7.3 cal/cm.
Toluene 8.9 cal/cm.

nothing to fool around with. be sure to change the oil after the soak also. B-12 doesn't do much as far as lubrication is concerned.


--Matt
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Old 01-03-2003, 08:12 PM   #6
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I've done the MMO soak twice and haven't seen much in the way of results. I'm tempted to try the B-12 but I'm still a little weary. There seem to be too many "ifs" and "hopefullys" for my liking. IS there any hard evidence out there....eg, long term effects, potential negative outcomes? Any of the Saturn techs want to touch this?
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Old 01-05-2003, 02:15 AM   #7
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I am not 100% familiar with B12 chem tool. What I do know...
1. It's expensive
2. It was NOT designed to be poured into a functioning/assembled engine.
3. It is CAUSTIC. (Adding a caustic into an environment with two different metals IE: Steel and aluminum, is NOT a good idea.
4. As a "reconditioning solvent" it does indeed dissolve rubber/ plastic and many sealants (Can we say engine oil seals, valve guide seals and worst case senario...a rear main seal)

I don't mean to sound as if I am ditching the product, BUT, if you are specifically using it for something it was NOT designed to do...you may want to weigh carefully the risks against any potential benefit and the "long term" consequences. "Agressive is not ALWAYS a good thing"
...
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Old 01-05-2003, 09:40 AM   #8
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Sorry to dispute the previous points but it is $2 and change at Walmart and does have instructions for use in the crankcase as a 5 min. flush.
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Old 01-05-2003, 09:59 AM   #9
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Default B12

If B-12 says it wont cause problems then you as a consumer can use it . If it ruins your engine then they will have to buy you a new crate engine ( $3500.00 for a DOHC ) Hmmmm
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Old 01-05-2003, 04:35 PM   #10
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You might have a hard time proving to Chem tool that their product is the reason why your valve seals are gone.
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Old 01-05-2003, 07:55 PM   #11
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Default oh ya !

Judge Judy may see it different
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Old 01-06-2003, 06:14 AM   #12
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Another item to try is called Lube Control and can be found at Bobistheoilguy.com. Put this in a search. Suppose to free stuck rings.
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Old 01-06-2003, 06:26 AM   #13
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Perhaps we are talking about two different products. The one I remember came in 1 gallon jugs as a concentrate we diluted with varsol or kerosine. It was then used to throughly clean parts prior to rebuilding them with NEW seals etc...this stuff would actually discolor galvanized steel if left in contact with it too long...Great at removing just about anything from engine blocks, carbs, fuel injector pumps off diesels, transmission cases (carefully!) or master cylinders. A Carter AFB (Aluminum Four Barrel) carb accidentaly left in the stuff over a weekend actually completely disappeared...leaving only the steel and brass bits behind in the strainer basket. OOPS!
...
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Old 01-06-2003, 12:28 PM   #14
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Wow, where can I sign up to put that into my cylinders?!!!

It's my understanding that Chem tool also makes carb cleaner and other products. Perhaps they have a "top-engine cleaner" or other related product? As for the product Wolfman was talking about, I'm not putting a drop of that in my car. I wonder what it would do to just my valve cover?
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Old 01-16-2003, 04:11 PM   #15
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Jesus Wolf! A carter AFB is a nice one too. My 66 Mustang GT used one with 'Carter AFB technology'

I could only imagine coming back to my 'vat' pulling up the strainer and seeing remnants in it.



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