SaturnFans.com
saturnfans.com - classifieds - forums


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series Tech

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-05-2004, 12:50 AM   #1
GmG
Advanced Member
GmG is on a distinguished road
 
GmG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Lake George, NY
Posts: 806
 

1998 SC2
1992 SC
Default High Idle, Rough Running, SES 26 &32 - 93 SL1

Hey All,

Cliff's Notes: high, sometimes rough unstable idle 1500-2500RPM, jerking/bucking on acceleration/coasting/maintaining speed, SES codes 26 and 32 I've had for longer than this problem.

Full Story Warning: Long! My SL1 is acting up again. I have SES codes 26 (quad driver) & 32 (egr fault). Those codes have been in the car basically since I bought it a year ago. So far, I've replaced the EGR solenoid and the CCPS with genuine Saturn parts. I've also replaced the MAP sensor (non Saturn), IAT sensor (non Saturn) and TPS (genuine Saturn part) in response to SES codes which didn't come back. ECTS replaced with non Saturn brass tip sensor. Alternator was replaced recently.

The problems started about a month ago, when I started the car up on a pretty warm day and it ran VERY rough. I had just filled up with gas, so thought it may have been water in the gas and put a bottle of drygas in. After a 15 mile drive, it was running fine and problem didn't return for a couple weeks. A couple weeks later, the same thing happened, same treatment, same result, problem went away.

About five days ago, the same thing happened again. Just after filling up, it ran rough, put a bottle of drygas in, but this time, the problem didn't go away.

When starting cold, the engine would idle rough, fluttering between 1000-1500RPM. Once warm, the idle was very high, about 2100-2600RPM. If I revved it up to around 3500, it would fall slower than normal to about 2600, then slowly go down to 2100 or so.

All the time, the car was jerking down the road. This jerking was worst at low speeds and kept doing it until highway speed when it smoothed out. On Thursday, the car was getting close to undrivable. I was going to replace the plugs, then post up here. As soon as I ordered a new set of V-Powers, the car started running great. Smooth idle at 800RPM, smooth acceleration.

I put the plugs in Saturday. The metal inside the plug boot came out on the #4 wire, so I put an old one on for the time being, Advance is going to have a new set for me tomorrow. Then I had some driving to do, 120 miles Saturday and the same yesterday. Car ran fine the whole time. The when I was pulling out of the driveway after the trip yesterday, the jerking started again. Then the high idle, about 1500RPM this time. I drove, round trip, about 40 miles, high idle and jerking all the way.

Then tonight, I still had the high idle, 1500RPM, but the car runs smooth, no jerking.

I've tried several brands and grades of gas from different stations to rule that out.

I've read some past threads where others pointed to the IAC valve being stuck causing high idle. Any thoughts on that or the EGR valve? I'd been meaning to look into the 26 & 32 further but had been waiting for the warmer weather. All dash lights work except whatever is immediately left of the upshift light (don't know what that is).

If anyone would like some readings on any sensors, I can get my DMM out.

TIA, George
...
George
92 SCm 138k
98 SC2m 131k

"You shouldn't leave things in the fridge. That is the lesson."
GmG is offline  
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 04-05-2004, 12:56 AM   #2
GmG
Advanced Member
GmG is on a distinguished road
 
GmG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Lake George, NY
Posts: 806
 

1998 SC2
1992 SC
Default

I just remembered I have a picture of the old plugs. They should be in order About 6-8000 miles on them since I cleaned them last.



George
...
George
92 SCm 138k
98 SC2m 131k

"You shouldn't leave things in the fridge. That is the lesson."
GmG is offline  
Old 04-05-2004, 10:27 AM   #3
bennett9000
Senior Member
bennett9000 has a spectacular aura aboutbennett9000 has a spectacular aura about
 
bennett9000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 1,887
 
Default

You say you replaced the EGR solenoid, but you've not replaced the EGR valve itself. Could be time...

Also, if your EGR is REALLY bad, you may have clogged EGR passages in your intake manifold. If you replace the EGR valve, get a good can of carb cleaner and clean really well inside the holes where the EGR sits on the manifold. I replaced an EGR valve on a 94 SL1 a couple of months ago with similar symptoms as yours, and the holes in the manifold were pretty much gunked SHUT.

High idle can be caused by crud behind your throttle body, intruding on the plate and not allowing it to close completely. You can use the same carb cleaner to get rid of that stuff as well, in addition to about 50 paper towels. It'll be nasty...
...
-Andy

01 SL1 (2011-2014) 99 SW2 (2002-2009) 95 SL2 (1997-2002)
00 ROUSH Cougar V6 03 SVT Focus #2370 08 Mustang Bullitt #5389 2013 Fiat 500 Abarth
bennett9000 is offline  
Old 04-05-2004, 01:40 PM   #4
Dach
Senior Member
Dach is a jewel in the roughDach is a jewel in the roughDach is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,033
Default

Do a search on quad driver in the tech forum and you'll read about the related sensors and solenoids involved with that code. You probably need to change your ECTS if it's never been done. (not code related but causes idle/driveability issues)
Dach is offline  
Old 04-06-2004, 10:29 AM   #5
GmG
Advanced Member
GmG is on a distinguished road
 
GmG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Lake George, NY
Posts: 806
 

1998 SC2
1992 SC
Default

Hey Andy, I just noticed your thread from last year on your throttle body.. nasty stuff!

What's the preferred way to clean a TBI throttle body? I read a bunch of old threads and got out of them that I shouldn't remove the throttle body, but I'm still not sure exactly what I'm cleaning. I opened the throttle plate and looked into the intake manifold and aside from being a little wet looks pretty clean, not all carboned up.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dach
Do a search on quad driver in the tech forum and you'll read about the related sensors and solenoids involved with that code. You probably need to change your ECTS if it's never been done. (not code related but causes idle/driveability issues)
Yeah, I've checked out a lot of quad driver related threads, that's why I replaced the two solenoids. ECTS has been replaced with non Saturn brass tip sensor.

I saw in this thread, the "cooling fan or control relay" mentioned as not being the cause of someone's 26/32 issues, what's the story with these? I don't remember reading about them in my travels about the board in search of info.

I tried blocking off the egr vacuum hose per one of wolfman's posts and didn't see any improvement.

I'm going to replace the PCV valve as soon as I can get a Saturn part to do it with.

As of last night, the car was running good, who knows if that will change and when. This afternoon I'll be getting the new plug wires.

Fun, fun!

George
...
George
92 SCm 138k
98 SC2m 131k

"You shouldn't leave things in the fridge. That is the lesson."
GmG is offline  
Old 04-11-2004, 05:57 PM   #6
GmG
Advanced Member
GmG is on a distinguished road
 
GmG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Lake George, NY
Posts: 806
 

1998 SC2
1992 SC
Default

Well, I got the new wires in and it hasn't done the high idle/stumbling thing in about a week/600 miles. I guess I have to consider it fixed unless the symptoms pop up again.

George
...
George
92 SCm 138k
98 SC2m 131k

"You shouldn't leave things in the fridge. That is the lesson."
GmG is offline  
Old 05-10-2004, 11:31 AM   #7
GmG
Advanced Member
GmG is on a distinguished road
 
GmG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Lake George, NY
Posts: 806
 

1998 SC2
1992 SC
Default

This is still happening with regularity. Every time in the last month (5 or 6 times, at least) when it started running poorly, it was wet out. Today, I brought my car in for an alignment, it had rained overnight and into the morning. The car was fine all the way to the shop, I parked and shut it down. A half hour later, the tech pulled it in and reported that it was running very rough. As I left, I confirmed that it was indeed running like crap.

Any thoughts as to whether the wet could be causing problems and if I could do anything about it?

George
...
George
92 SCm 138k
98 SC2m 131k

"You shouldn't leave things in the fridge. That is the lesson."
GmG is offline  
Old 05-10-2004, 12:26 PM   #8
FrozenPilot
Senior Member
FrozenPilot is on a distinguished road
 
FrozenPilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Leesburg, VA
Posts: 1,399
 

1995 SL1
Default

Any more SES lights? From what I've read I'm assuming you haven't had any more. Usually a rough running engine due to wet weather is wet ignition. I've seen cheap a** plug wires stop a car in its tracks because they got a little moisture on them (and I'm talking smaller than a puddle!). Also check the coil packs, possibly a cracked one around.

Its also been mentioned about the EGR valve being gunked. I'd pull it off and clean it with carb cleaner if it hasn't been done. It won't harm it as long as you dont spray the rubber diaphragm.
...
Its all about the coffee...

'06 Mazda 6i & '95 Saturn SL1
FrozenPilot is offline  
Old 05-14-2004, 09:26 AM   #9
GmG
Advanced Member
GmG is on a distinguished road
 
GmG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Lake George, NY
Posts: 806
 

1998 SC2
1992 SC
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by FrozenPilot
Any more SES lights? From what I've read I'm assuming you haven't had any more. Usually a rough running engine due to wet weather is wet ignition. I've seen cheap a** plug wires stop a car in its tracks because they got a little moisture on them (and I'm talking smaller than a puddle!). Also check the coil packs, possibly a cracked one around.

Its also been mentioned about the EGR valve being gunked. I'd pull it off and clean it with carb cleaner if it hasn't been done. It won't harm it as long as you dont spray the rubber diaphragm.
Thanks for the response. Still only 26 & 32, I confirmed it a few minutes ago. Plug wires are brand new Autolite pros, which seem to make a good seal, they're quite hard to pull off the plugs/towers. Earlier in the week when this happened again, I inspected the packs for water, but it was dark so I may have missed it. What am I looking for in a cracked pack? They are a little rusty in the middles, but from what I've heard on here, IIRC, that's not a problem.

I sprayed the throttle body down well today with throttle body cleaner (not carb cleaner) and got a ton of gunk off the visible surfaces. Hopefully it helped the IAC value, too.

Yesterday was funny. It rained like crazy here, total downpours. I left my father's house for my place, the car was running fine, but after driving about 15 miles, it started the jerking/bucking, crappy idle, high idle thing again. When I left my house 4 hours later it was running worse than ever, this time with the idle fluctuating down so low, the headlights/dash lights were dimming and the car sounded like it wanted to stall, but would catch at the last moment, idle back up, and down again, about every two seconds. Also, after driving 20 miles, it was still idling low. Typically, in the dozen or more times this has happened before, once the car warms up, it idles at 1500-2500 and is fairly smooth. This time it was idling rough and dropping so low the headlights were dimming again.

The same sort of thing happened on Monday, too, now that I think of it. It rained all night, but had stopped by morning, and the car was fine when I started it up in the morning, drove the 10 miles to Firestone for my alignment, car was still fine when I parked it. When the tech started it up 45 minutes later to move it into the garage, he reported that it was running VERY rough. Upon my leaving Firestone, it was indeed doing the low, fluctuating idle thing again.

So that's twice now that the car was fine after the rain, but got lousy after taking it out for a drive on the semi-wet roads and damp air.

George
...
George
92 SCm 138k
98 SC2m 131k

"You shouldn't leave things in the fridge. That is the lesson."
GmG is offline  
Old 05-14-2004, 01:31 PM   #10
mars_volta
Advanced Member
mars_volta is on a distinguished road
 
mars_volta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: MN
Posts: 758
 
Default

just a thought. do you ever smell raw gas smell?

I had a fuel pressure regulator that went bad and was shooting gas back thru the vacuum line into the intake. It kept setting codes. 32 mostly. It would idle real high (3k) and stall sometimes. Check it out.
mars_volta is offline  
Old 05-14-2004, 01:53 PM   #11
poorboy
Member
poorboy is a jewel in the roughpoorboy is a jewel in the roughpoorboy is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 492
 

1994 SL2
Default

Have you gone through this procedure line by line?

http://www.differentracing.com/tech_...es/dtc/26.html
poorboy is offline  
Old 05-14-2004, 02:57 PM   #12
wrg813
Member
wrg813 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 311
Default

I keep seeing you move past the code 32 concern. I would suggest an new EGR valve first before moving on. Faulty valve can cause everything you are describing.
wrg813 is offline  
Old 05-14-2004, 03:03 PM   #13
poorboy
Member
poorboy is a jewel in the roughpoorboy is a jewel in the roughpoorboy is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 492
 

1994 SL2
Default

I have to object to the above statement. If code 26 is present fix that code first.
poorboy is offline  
Old 05-14-2004, 03:08 PM   #14
wrg813
Member
wrg813 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 311
Default

Whoa! I didn't realize my suggestion was so scathing as to have someone "object" to it. If I were in that position, I may just disagree and offer why. Sorry to offend.
wrg813 is offline  
Old 05-14-2004, 03:43 PM   #15
poorboy
Member
poorboy is a jewel in the roughpoorboy is a jewel in the roughpoorboy is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 492
 

1994 SL2
Default

object: 1: to offer in opposition 2: to oppose something. I'm saying that if it was only the EGR vavle there would be no code 26. Code 26 is trying to tell you something. I would not advise throwing parts at the problem (some expensive) and seeing if that corrects the problem. With that said, I'm sorry if I offended you. That was not what I wanted to do. I'm just saying I disagree with your suggestion.
poorboy is offline  
Old 05-14-2004, 05:12 PM   #16
wrg813
Member
wrg813 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 311
Default

No offense, just havin' fun. The first post indicates the 2 solenoids that could possibly set code 26 have been replaced. This, in theory, would eliminate them as the cause. Other possibilities to set code would probably not cause the symptoms described(cooling fan operation, passive restraint module and so on). By the way, do the seat belts work? The 2 codes do not necessarily have to be related, but the code 32 seems like the constant here. Just thoughts. Let us know how it turns out.
wrg813 is offline  
Old 05-14-2004, 10:11 PM   #17
wolfman
Super Member
wolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of light
 
wolfman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 12,066
 
Default

Keep in mind that the EGR valve does not even come into play until the car reaches normal operating temp. As it seems to start fine and then the problem deveolps after it is driven a while (warms up) it suggests and EGR issue. The symptoms you describe and the 26 and 32 codes tend to confirm that. As you have replaced the EGR solenoid, the EGR valve itself may be the culprit. Disconnect the vacuum line AT THE VALVE and PLUG the hose you removed, OR disconnect it at the SOLENOID and plug the solenoid end of that connection. YOU MUST COMPLETELY plug the HOSE! If this resolves the problem, the EGR diaphram is toast. Replace the EGR valve.
The "used" plugs you pictured look quite good by the way...
...
Old Saturns never die, people KILL them, so check your damn oil!
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." Albert Einstein
wolfman is offline  
Old 05-15-2004, 01:43 AM   #18
GmG
Advanced Member
GmG is on a distinguished road
 
GmG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Lake George, NY
Posts: 806
 

1998 SC2
1992 SC
Default

Wow, lotsa responses!

mars_volta: Yeah, sometimes it does blow black smoke/gas smell when I start it up and it has the unstable idle, but not when the idle is high. It doesn't stall, but came close the other day.

poorboy: That's a great link, I've been over that and my cooling fan doesn't work automagically. I changed out the ECTS w/ Saturn one and new connector, still doesn't work. I posted some DMM readings on the wire a few weeks ago, but didn't get any further. I don't know if the new connector is working right or if I took the readings right.

wolfman: Thanks again, I tried that once before when the bad running condition was present and it didn't help, but will do it again. I do get some pinging, especially when giving it gas to let out the clutch, maybe the valve is bad and is leaning it out too much? Maybe I should plug it and drive around that way for a while. I cleaned the EGR out good and replaced the gasket. Good news on the plugs, BTW.

George
...
George
92 SCm 138k
98 SC2m 131k

"You shouldn't leave things in the fridge. That is the lesson."
GmG is offline  
Old 05-24-2004, 10:21 PM   #19
GmG
Advanced Member
GmG is on a distinguished road
 
GmG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Lake George, NY
Posts: 806
 

1998 SC2
1992 SC
Default

wolfman, I just re-read your post and need to clarify, the car runs the worst right when I start it up. This usually happens after the car has gotten wet, but not every time the car gets wet, so I'm not sure what to think of the moisture connection. It has only happened once when the car hadn't been wet since the last time it was run. The super-high idle has calmed down; now the highest it gets is about 1500rpm. Every time the problem occurs, there is a very unstable idle, with the car almost stalling every 10 seconds or so, sometimes blowing black smoke with gas odor, always with a smelly (not always gasoline) exhaust. When in gear, whether accelerating, cruising or slowing, the car jerks, sometimes violently. Accelerating very hard (pedal almost to the floor) or cruising at 3000+RPM minimizes the problem.

I removed the vacuum line from the EGR valve and plugged it off tightly and ran the car for the past few days. The problem occurred three times with the line plugged, once after I had been driving for about 80 miles on dry roads until it rained for 20 minutes or so, the jerking started, shortly after the rain stopped, the jerking and unstable idle went away. The other two times were after the car had been rained on in the driveway, including this morning. I popped the hood this morning and noticed a lot of condensation all over the place, even on the exhaust manifold. After driving 12 miles, the condensation was gone, but the car was still idling unstably at about 1100rpms (dipping lower frequently) and had a smelly exhaust, which was not black or gasoline smelling.

I should also note that I did not have this problem over the winter.

George
...
George
92 SCm 138k
98 SC2m 131k

"You shouldn't leave things in the fridge. That is the lesson."
GmG is offline  
Old 05-24-2004, 10:56 PM   #20
wolfman
Super Member
wolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of light
 
wolfman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 12,066
 
Default

Well we really need to make those 26 & 32 codes go away before considering other things. As you have already replaced the EGR solenoid, and plugging the EGR valve hose with the valve disconnected does not improve the issue, replace the ECTS if you have not already. This could be the source of those issues believe it or not. (A faulty ECTS can cause initial mixyure problems and EGR function to come on too soon in relation to engine temp.) If the ECTS has already been replaced, go through the check list for all items that can cause a code 26 and make sure they have all been addresssed. A quad driver fault can prevent all items driven by the quad driver module of the PCM to be adversely affected, some of them and not others, etc... A "wet" problem is generally always ignition relatd, BUT, if it is a cold and wet problem, it can be related to a marginal fuel mixture problem that a perfectly good ignition system is having trouble dealing with.
...
Old Saturns never die, people KILL them, so check your damn oil!
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." Albert Einstein
wolfman is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sudden onset of rough idle/running 92 SL1 auger S-Series Tech 9 03-30-2008 02:58 PM
High Idle and rough running quasar S-Series General 5 12-14-2007 03:48 AM
SES light on & high idle skijay Vue General 7 06-20-2006 08:35 PM
'95 SL1 Auto & A/C - Runs rough & stalls at idle & low rpm's BusyGuy S-Series General 3 03-18-2006 10:58 PM
91SC Running Rough @ Idle & Acceleration Another91sc S-Series Tech 4 06-08-2005 08:38 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:07 AM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.