Manual transmission hard to shift (95 sl2)

[oseberg]

I have a 95 SL2 with a manual transmission.

It's hard to shift into any gear. It seems as though the syncro isn't working, but the gears never grind while shifting. It's just hard to push into gear.

It's especially difficult once the car is stopped and I'm trying to shift into first.

My guess is that there's some mechanism that makes all the gears spin so the syncros can get things lined up, but for some reason the dog gears don't spin any more, so if they don't happen to be lined up, they never will be.

It doesn't seem like it's a linkage problem because sometimes it goes right into gear, and sometimes it doesn't.

Double clutching seems like it helps sometimes, but not very much. It's hard to tell due to how little it appears to help.

Any ideas what might cause this?

[BarnOwl]

Most likely the clutch isn't fully disengaging. That's usually clutch hydraulics or a worn out pressure plate. This thread will tell you how to check the hydraulics.

[MikeNW]

Welcome to Saturn clutch hell.

Yes, check the hydraulic system, if it doesn't push the clutch fork enough, the clutch will "drag" as Barnowl states. You need only to remove the airbox to get access, to measure the fork travel.

In my case, I suspect that there is an internal clutch problem.

Outside chance that there is accumulated slop, or broken parts in the shifter assembly.
Or sticking shifter cables.

[MikeNW]

One more thought- especially since you said, it's hard to get into 1st, suspect a dragging clutch.

These cars are REALLY hard to double clutch BTW

[oseberg]

I did suspect that it might be the clutch at first. But if it were the clutch, I would expect the gears to grind when I try to force it into gear.

For example, if I'm sitting there trying to get it to go into 1st and it won't go, then if I slowly start to release the clutch, as soon as the clutch starts to engage it'll grind, and still not go into gear.

Through more experimenting I now believe that double clutching doesn't help at all, and I've discovered that the problem is more likely to occur if I try to switch gears quickly. If I instead just gently push on the stick for a while eventually the dog teeth will line up, and it'll slip right into gear with no problem. This only works while the car is moving. When stopped, the dog gears aren't rotating, so I can try over and over and it won't go in. If I release the clutch then press it again, then there's a chance the teeth will line up and I can get it in gear.

I really don't believe it's a problem with the clutch. But I'll check whatever I can anyway since if it is a clutch problem that's a lot easier for me to deal with since I've already done a few clutches and have never taken apart a transmission before. However, I've had worn out clutches in several previous vehicles and this isn't the behavior I experienced.

I'm thinking this is a problem with the dog gears and syncros. Maybe it's something as simple as low transmission fluid. Is there any reason for the transmission fluid to get low without leaving a puddle beneath the car?

[oseberg]

I tried replying to the other thread but couldn't, so I'll reply here:

Thread: http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94634

What about slightly engaging the parking brakes, pressing the clutch petal all the way to the floor, putting the transmission into 1st gear, then slowly releasing the clutch petal to see how far it moves before the engine starts to struggle and the car starts to creep forward?

BTW: My car passes this test. The petal has to move significantly before the clutch begins to engage.

[BarnOwl]

You're right that you get gear grinding if the clutch is fully engaged and try to shift but, you might notice you don't if the clutch is only partially engaged. That's what's going on here. For instance, if you are shifting fast from third through to fifth, you might notice that you can get away with barely hitting the clutch with no grind. The clutch is still partially engaged. You can't do that in first and second.

I've seen this exact problem on 2 Saturns, one of them got it twice. The first time it was hydraulics. The second time it was worn pressure plate fingers. The third time it was worn 1st and 2nd gear synchros...I think. That one did shift easily, if you double clutched. I swapped in a $50 Pull-A-Part tranny and that car's still doing fine. Your problem is almost certainly in the clutch.

[DonP]

Does it shift with ease when the engine is off? Sounds like the classic clutch hydraulics problem. Might be helped for a short while by adding fluid if the fluid is low. Did you do the diagnostic check BarnOwl suggested? Good to rule out the simple things forty.

[dylankarr]

it feels like my clutch isnt fully engaging on my 95 saturn.could the slave cylinder prevent the clutch from fully engaging?

[Macgyver]

Try changing the fluid. Put in 2 quarts of Mobil 1 ATF. Costs about $20 and it fixed my shifting issue. It felt like my shifter was being moved through pudding. After changing, it was much smoother.

[Signmaster]

Originally Posted by dylankarr

it feels like my clutch isnt fully engaging on my 95 saturn.could the slave cylinder prevent the clutch from fully engaging?

Usually if the clutch isn't fully engaging it's actually a matter of wear and not the slave cylinder.

Do you have clutch slipping or chattering of some sort? What exactly is making you think the clutch isn't fully engaging?

[RobertGary1]

Originally Posted by BarnOwl

You're right that you get gear grinding if the clutch is fully engaged and try to shift but, you might notice you don't if the clutch is only partially engaged. That's what's going on here. For instance, if you are shifting fast from third through to fifth, you might notice that you can get away with barely hitting the clutch with no grind. The clutch is still partially engaged. You can't do that in first and second.

I never got any grinding when my hydraulics were bad. I just noticed difficulty putting it in gear, especially at a stop. Replaced the hydraulic assembly and the problem went away.

-Robert

[dylankarr]

i meant the clutch wasnt disengaging but i replaced the slave cylinder and now the clutch is fine.

[dylankarr]

i went and bought a slave cylinder from the junk yard at first it was fine but now its not disenganing all the way what could be the problem?by the way there is no bleeder screw on the slave cylinder because it comes pre bled.

[tommyt]

I thought the master and slave system was a one piece sealed unit that could not be separated?

[dylankarr]

the slave and master for the clutch is one piece that is how i bought it from the junkyard and i found out it was bad.

[Dylltronn3030]

I really wish this thread was still open, im having very similiar issues with shifting into 1st & 2nd (stays in 3rd& 4th)with my tranny. im replacing the shift linkage with an ebay pair with spherical rod ends because im almost positive ive narrowed the problem down to the cable not fully extending the piston on the transmission control housing. But im afraid that if after all the work I come to find that it is the syncros, or a problem in the clutch

if anyone could shed some light on this for me/ or redirect me to a thread that covers this(ive been hunting the web for a while) that would be much appreciated!


Specs: 2000 SC2 (160k)//2001 1.9L DOHC swap(60k) 5-speed

[LabRat]

What specifically is your problem? If you're having trouble getting into 1st and 2nd check clutch slave shaft/fork travel per the Richpin video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=099IRHql-qc and clutch pedal travel http://www.youtube.com/user/richpin0.../1/ZL-FZ7bT4_A.

If both are up to snuff then there may be issues with shifter cables, shift tower or forks. Check there is no fraying or other deterioration of one or both of the shift cables, and that ends/links are tight and connections positive at the shifter inside the car and at the shift tower on the transmission. If one or both of the cables are questionable they replace as a pair. OEM cables are recommended here; aftermarket replacements have a poor record.

If you're having trouble with staying in 1st/2nd it's a different problem more likely related to transmission internals.

You may want to start a new thread.

-LR

Edit: sorry, the pedal travel video is no longer there, and that slave fork travel video is not too useful and isn't the one I remember viewing some time back. Fork travel should be in the 0.5" range if I remember correctly...

[LabRat]

Try this how-to for clutch hydraulics diagnosis http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...h+pedal+travel

-LR

[Dylltronn3030]

Hey thank you for the response on a dead thread! specifically the problem is that the car has trouble getting 1st at a stop, when i try to go its obviously in 3rd and it almost bogs out. for a while i was able to yank the shifter around back into 5th n reverse then bring it back over(smashing into 1st) and i could hear 1st slipping in with a clean click. but now its way worse and it seems like i cant bring the shifter far enough to the left, it looks like its sitting in 1st w/ the shifter but its still in 3rd. this happens whether the car is on or not. I had a friend shift while i watched the transmission control tower, and i could see the piston wasn't being fully extended and it would fall back to its middle position that actuates for 3rd and 4th gear. im able to shift into 1st and 2nd fine with my hands under the hood with the car off. Also once im able to get the gears selected the car shifts fine into them and drives fine. its jus the ability to accurately select 1st n 2nd extremely difficult. Ive been working on this problem for a couple months now, ive replaced the bushing under the stick shift(no affect), i've topped off my tranny fluid( overfilled/ drained a lil back out), I just orderd a new set of custom cables from a guy on ebay that makes them with steel spherical rod ends so they wont fail again. Ive heard of the beware the oem n aftermarket cables but i felt pretty confident in the ones i ordered( no plastic on them anywhere!) im hoping these will be the final solution to the slop in my shifter as well as its less than accurate selector. if not i dont know what to do next, what worries me a lil is that I do feel like double clutching helped me get 1st sometimes, not always....


Here are those cables i ordered : http://www.ebay.com/itm/Saturn-S-Ser...4ed3ad&vxp=mtr