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Old 03-02-2022, 01:29 PM   #1
bigcougar
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Default EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

I was looking for a compatible engine for my LW1.

GM tells me my engine has a EGR port that is capped, which was visually confirmed.

Does this mean I need an engine without an EGR port, or that I can also have one with an EGR port and cap the port?

The 8th digit in the VIN number of my vehicle is an "F"

Many thanks to anyone who can clarify this for me!
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Old 03-03-2022, 11:56 PM   #2
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2002 L-Series 2.2L Sedan
2000 L-Series 2.2L Sedan
Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

All of the 4 cylinder L series I have owned have had an egr port with a block off plate. I have an 02 Olds Alero engine and trans in my 2000 Ls1. Strip it to a long block and use all the Saturn stuff.
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Old 03-12-2022, 01:48 AM   #3
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

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Originally Posted by 02 LW300 View Post
All of the 4 cylinder L series I have owned have had an egr port with a block off plate. I have an 02 Olds Alero engine and trans in my 2000 Ls1. Strip it to a long block and use all the Saturn stuff.
So why would they produce a whole series of vehicles that have an engine with an EGR port that is not needed for anything? I find it very strange.

Anyways , I found a 2.2L L series engine from a 2003 Saturn L200 Sedan. It has no EGR port.

I want to install it into my 2000 LW1 (also 2.2L with a blocked EGR port)

How can I confirm it is the exact fit, or is it even possible it is not?

When I search for an engine on Car-Part.com, once I select the L series, it gives me 3 options:

2.2L - no EGR
2.2L - with EGR
3.0L
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Old 03-12-2022, 08:56 PM   #4
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2002 L-Series 2.2L Sedan
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

This engine was designed for use in many different car lines, some of which might need egr to meet smog in some states. How strict are the smog laws where you live? I installed a 2003 L200 engine in my 2002 L200 several years ago, it is a direct fit Saturn to Saturn. I did use the 2002 exhaust manifold because my car has air injection and the 2003 did not. The 2003 engine I found had the egr port with the block off plate.
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Old 03-12-2022, 11:58 PM   #5
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

Quote:
How strict are the smog laws where you live?
The laws where I live are none existent ! I lived in Ontario, Canada and I had to meet emission tests every year - with this same engine with the capped EGR port, but it was new then.

I am in BC now and there are no emission test requirements.


My concern is, is this 2003 L200 Saturn engine an exact physical and functional replacement for my 2000 LW1 Saturn engine ?


Because I have to order it on Monday, and if I make a mistake I will be many dollars in the hole.
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Old 03-13-2022, 01:19 PM   #6
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

The 2003 engine I removed from a wrecked car works fine in my 2002. I cannot say for sure that what you have found will plug and play. What does the engine supplier say?
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Old 03-13-2022, 04:47 PM   #7
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

The supplier is an auto wrecker in Alberta.

They list what the engine is and what vehicle it came from.

I have no way to confirm it is the exact fit, other than use on-line resources and guess.

If I am having trouble confirming, the auto wrecker will be in the same position.
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Old 03-13-2022, 07:35 PM   #8
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

If they are removing the engine from a Saturn L it will fit in your car.
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Old 03-13-2022, 08:25 PM   #9
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcougar View Post
... My concern is, is this 2003 L200 Saturn engine an exact physical and functional replacement for my 2000 LW1 Saturn engine ?


Because I have to order it on Monday, and if I make a mistake I will be many dollars in the hole.
According to the OEM site I like to use, the replacement long blocks are the same from '00 through '04 for Saturn cars. Interestingly, the cylinder head replacement part number remains the same for all five model years, but the p/n for the block is different and is changed from 2001 onwards. So will this donor engine work in your car? My answer is, yes, particularly since a factory ordered long block - which is NLA - was meant to service all five years of the L-Series cars with a four cylinder engine.

Nevertheless, it has to be recognized that the engine block p/n changed in '01. There must have been some physical alteration to the block with that model year and the succeeding years for the L-Series cars. Unfortunately, the OEM parts source doesn't provide any explanation for this so we're left to ourselves to determine what that difference may be. Whatever that difference is it apparently did not alter to anything as relates to the internal parts of the engines, nor their timing related components. Then again, one other alternative exists: there may have been a consolidation of part numbers between the divisions of GM and the new block number may merely have been one part number superseding another. The ECOTEC 2.2L was, after all, a corporate engine.

https://www.gmpartscenter.net/v-2000...system--intake

https://www.gmpartscenter.net/v-2003...-system--intak

With regard to the cylinder head Saturn continued to utilize the same individual intake and exhaust manifold along with their gaskets through 2003. (The intake manifold changed in '04.) See the links above currently set at the intake manifold page. I foresee no negative issues with attaching your manifolds to the donor cylinder head in this case.
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Last edited by pierrot; 03-13-2022 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 03-13-2022, 09:17 PM   #10
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

Just guessing but a 2.2L is a 2.2L whether or not it uses an egr valve or not. GM made the 2.2L ECOTEC engine universal for several models. I don't know if a 2.2L uses an egr valve in other GM models. There may be only one difference if egr valves are used from one 2.2L using one and one that doesn't - the ecm/pcm.

A possible difference between a 2.2L using an egr valve and another 2.2L not using an egr valve would be programming in the engine computer. Factory tuned engine computers would have one programmed to use egr valve feedback position sensors and the other one not programmed to use the egr feedback position sensors.

Logically, the original 2.2L engine not using an egr valve implies the engine computer isn't programmed to use signals from an egr valve. Replacing the engine whether or not it has an egr valve should be moot since the computer won't recognize egr valve signals. Worse case is attempting to use an egr valve on an engine and the computer gets confused, possibly not operating correctly and/or triggering a false error code(s). The block off plate on the replacement engine or taken off the original engine and (hopefully) fitted on the replacement engine should work since you're not replacing the engine computer.

Another issue may be the crank position sensor where the replacement engine may require the engine computer perform a relearn procedure to learn new crank sensor values.
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Old 03-14-2022, 02:23 AM   #11
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Another issue may be the crank position sensor where the replacement engine may require the engine computer perform a relearn procedure to learn new crank sensor values.

Now that is something I have never thought about.

And I hope this is not the case.

I am replacing an L series 4 cylinder Saturn engine with another one like that, which is 3 years newer.

I believe one is able to use a Saturn engine years 2000, 2001, 2002 or 2003 without any problem.

Supposedly my new engine comes with the intake and exhaust manifolds and all else needed.

I wonder if it makes sense saving any of the parts in the old engine - I am tempted to save the ignition coil, my spark plugs there are knew too, but other than that, I cannot think of anything else that might be of future use.
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Old 03-14-2022, 01:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

Another thing, would there be any difference in the engine between an automatic and a standard version? There shouldn't be, I would think.
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Old 03-14-2022, 10:55 PM   #13
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

Keep all your old parts until the swap is complete. The ignition coil pack is a known part to fail. I have had no problems using automatic engines in manual cars and vise versa.
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Old 03-14-2022, 11:40 PM   #14
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 02 LW300 View Post
Keep all your old parts until the swap is complete. The ignition coil pack is a known part to fail. I have had no problems using automatic engines in manual cars and vise versa.
Yes, my original ignition coil failed in 2006 (lasted 6 years). The one I replaced it with lasted 15 years and is still good (I hope)

So I phoned GM today and they cannot tell me anything about engine matching any more ! They say GM does not support Saturn and they have no information what the engine number is, other than it is a L61.

So this is my final predicament: I have the serials of both vehicles. Is there a resource that can determine engine compatibility

1G8JU82F5YY640396 - 2000 Saturn LW1 wagon, 4 cylinder, 2.2L , automatic
1G8JU54F93Y538992 - 2003 Saturn L200 sedan , 4 cylinder, 2.2L, manual

I really hope they match and are a straight replacement.
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Old 03-15-2022, 02:38 PM   #15
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post

Another issue may be the crank position sensor where the replacement engine may require the engine computer perform a relearn procedure to learn new crank sensor values.
Now another GM guy tells me an L61 engine should replace another L61 engine no problem and that there are no programming procedures for an engine replacement on a vehicle that old.

Still scratching my head with this.
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Old 03-15-2022, 04:28 PM   #16
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

Semantics sometimes gets in the way of technical discussions. The ecm or pcm is 'programmed' with essential info to run the entire EFI system. In this case, my guess is 2.2L engines are interchangeable but one computer needs egr signals and the other computer not needing egr signals. Were you able to
ask if there's different programming relative to egr/non egr engines?

My GM service manuals for '03 L200 and L300 mentions a crank relearn procedure is performed for L200s when a crank sensor is replaced. No mention of crank relearn for L300s. When my crank sensor on my L300 became intermittent, the replacement went in the same day of failure. Restarted the engine and drove it home without issues. Never had any hint of problems afterwards since replacement. Why 2.2L engines requires a crank relearn is anyone's guess.

The crank relearn procedure requires GMs scantool (Tech II). You won't know if the replacement engine runs fine as is or if it needs some minor work like a crank relearn. In theory, every engine is manufactured to close tolerances suggesting any variations are accommodated in machining and electronics to account for small inaccuracies. Briefly put, the crank relearn describes using GMs scantool to enable crank sensor variation. As the technician floors the pedal, the scantool detects engine rpm increasing until 4k rpm is reached when the scantool interrupts engine running and learns the crank sensor signals. In a way, a crank sensor is a crank sensor and the machined teeth on crankshafts are the same so there shouldn't be any variation. Best case scenario is your replacement engine goes in without any issues without requiring this procedure.
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Old 03-15-2022, 06:01 PM   #17
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Were you able to
ask if there's different programming relative to egr/non egr engines?
I will be looking for a difference in programming between an non egr engine and one that has its egr capped. I personally see no reason for a difference in programming based on the egr, given in both engines the egr is not used, but what do I know.

The reality is that information on parts, engines, compatibility and all else for our Saturns is getting so scarce that it is scary.

I always thought that in today's day and age, where everything can be digital, you will be able to find all such information for the foreseeable future. Apparently not. It is almost like GM wants to bury this make into the ground for good.
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Old 03-15-2022, 07:36 PM   #18
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

There's proprietary information manufacturers can claim as protecting their rights to competition. There's a current right to repair gathering of farmers demanding access to error codes and software for their million dollar John Deere tractors. As it stands, any error code that stops a tractor from operating in the middle of farming means expensive downtime while waiting for a mobile JD authorized tech to drive out to diagnose and fix issues. In olden days before electronics, JD tractors were easily maintained by farmers without calling for a tech. Electronics governs JD tractors with several screens, GPS, sensors everywhere, making the everyday farmer frustrated when they can't hook up a reader and scan for error codes. Aftermarket devices help. Last time I checked, Robert Bosch owns world wide rights to patented EFI systems used world wide. They retain rights to their software and licenses vehicle manufacturers to use them. Universal error codes and manufacturer specific error codes allows anyone with dedicated equipment to decode errors and attempt repairs. What cannot be meddled with is hard programming governing emissions controls - you may have read of VW manipulating their diesel engine computers to run tight emissions controls when inspections are performed then loosen them when vehicles are driven. This effectively dumped pollution onto the communities. A private evaluation group detected issues when testing a VW diesel engine and noticed greater pollution while driving yet maintained strict emissions control when tested in a service bay with the engine idling. Verifying this mystery exposed the scandal of VW and others manipulating diesel programming into a multi billion dollar lawsuit of fraud.

Very sophisticated programs runs EFI systems with a line drawn between 'tuners' wanting to up power without regards to pollution and engine manufacturers declining access to emissions programs that became the heart of the VW diesel scandal. Bosch EFI systems was apparently caught between a rock and a hard place for allowing manufacturers to selectively turn off emissions control with the understanding that this was strictly for testing purposes. VW didn't heed advice.
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Old 03-15-2022, 10:11 PM   #19
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

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Very sophisticated programs runs EFI systems with a line drawn between 'tuners' wanting to up power without regards to pollution and engine manufacturers declining access to emissions programs that became the heart of the VW diesel scandal.
OK. I do not have a Volswagen.

All I need to know is how the engine from that 2003 L200 Saturn would fit into my 2000 LW1 Saturn and if there is anything I should let the mechanic know before installing it.
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Old 03-16-2022, 01:44 AM   #20
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Default Re: EGR port or not; Does it matter ?

Quote:
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... All I need to know is how the engine from that 2003 L200 Saturn would fit into my 2000 LW1 Saturn and if there is anything I should let the mechanic know before installing it.
The only member replying in this thread who has actually exchanged varying model year 2.2L, L61, VIN F engines, is 02 LW300. His experience tells him that you should have no difficulties swapping out the engine you have for another from a later year. I happen to think that he's right about this. Since the auto wrecker you're consulting with is also sending the engine with the manifolds attached there may be some other pieces coming along with it which you may, or may not need. In any event, save all of the parts removed from your engine block "just in case"....

Is it not possible for the auto wrecker to send you detailed pictures of the engine as it is presently - hopefully it's still in the car - to allow you to make your own comparison between theirs and what you have? If I were in their shoes, I would want to help you to decide this. Used engine and transmission sales earn them their best profits.
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