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Old 02-15-2022, 06:58 PM   #1
FourWheels
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Default Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

1999 Saturn SL2
Problem: Slamming has returned 3500 miles after input nut shaft repair and valve body replacement. Problem is intermittent and adding fluid helped sometimes - but the intermittent nature has turned into permanent. Even though it was intermittent - the slamming was more often than not. I was concerned that I broke something - a mount maybe - since some rattling started. I checked but didn't find anything. I kept driving it pushing my luck and it got to the point that the slamming was so violent that I dared not drive it again for fear of ripping trans to shreds.

Background: In Feb 2018 I replaced input shaft nut and VB (refurb off ebay). Vehicle doesn't see many miles. Since then there was a period that car sat full two months without being put into gear. I did run it though. The problem came after that period. Is it possible fluid coagulated inside VB and is causing problems?

The problem happened on way to walmart so as soon as I got there I checked trans and it looked a bit low so topped it off. The ride home - no problem. Adding fluid seemed to help - but it was temporary/intermittent.

Example (early on): One trip to store the trans shifted ok to harsh shirts (not slamming). After shopping on way home violent slamming returns. Seems electrical but solenoids look good.

Current situation:
- Did another input shaft nut repair. This time I had no new nut but cleaned shaft and nut threads to make sure loctite would have good adhesion. Tightened to about 123ft/lbs. This higher torque I got from a post on SaturnForum as a revised GM spec from the 111ft/lbs.
- Put everything back together and put into reverse/drive while in driveway and it hits hard into R and D. Maybe not a violent slam but enough to know that problem was not solved with input shaft nut redo.

Solenoid testing (ohms) at VB pins where harness attaches.
60 Degrees F outside temp:
A&B (3rd Gear): 4.6-4.7
C&D (4th Gear): 4.8-4.9
E&K (TCC): 4.8-4.9
F&G (Line): 5.4-5.5
J&H (2nd Gear): 5.0-5.1

Engine Warmed Up:
A&B (3rd Gear): 5.6-5.7
C&D (4th Gear): 5.8-5.9
E&K (TCC): 5.8-5.9
F&G (Line): 6.2-6.3
J&H (2nd Gear): 5.8-5.9

A few diagnosis points:
- Alternator voltage is 14.4 at battery.
- Trans fluid in VB pins to harness connectors. Cleaned, no difference.
- Checked TRS LP fuse. It's fine.

Finally:
The VB purchase off ebay has lifetime warranty and seller is still active. I'm thinking VB interior issue maybe? Still haven't tested solenoids directly (with bus removed).

What do you guys think?
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Old 02-15-2022, 09:47 PM   #2
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

I think the VB is bad. If it is easy/cheap/convenient to get a replacement from the vendor you used, try that. If you want to try a VB from a different vendor, make sure they do both of the two more important "Sonnax upgrades". Many vendors do only one or the other.
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Old 03-07-2022, 10:34 PM   #3
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1997 SL
Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

Ahhhh
I might get into A/T probs, a 2000 SC.
Do you buy the solenoids, or ship off to a repairer, or buy new ones?
Will use this site "search" in the meantime
...
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Old 03-07-2022, 11:45 PM   #4
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

Solenoids can be replaced, so it is worth checking the resistance of the coil on each. Also, check the system voltage (should be 14-15V with engine running); these transmissions seem to be sensitive to low voltage.

However, "reverse slam" issues are usually (always?) due to wear in the VB "Booster" or "Pressure Regulator" sections; not solenoids.
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Old 05-24-2022, 12:52 PM   #5
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

I went through3 reman valve bodies for my 2001 sc2 and still didnt resolve the reverse slam and occasional hard 1-2 shift. The vendor replaced the reman unit twice and still slammed. never did figure out why so ive just been putting up with the slamming. Normally the new valve body fixes this issue and never figured out why it wouldnt fix this particular car. Wolfman on here said it had to be something else and wouldnt bother with any more valve bodies after 3 tries..
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Old 05-24-2022, 02:18 PM   #6
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

Were all three VBs from the same vendor? Which vendor, and did you verify that they had both the Pressure-Regulator and Booster "Sonnax upgrades"?

Were air-checks of the clutches and servo done during any of these VB changes?
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Old 09-06-2022, 11:59 AM   #7
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

Thanks for everyone's replies, I know it's been a while. I'm getting back around to getting this done.

I got into valve body, removed the bus plate, and checked the solenoids directly. Four, including line pressure are exactly at 5.0 ohms. The other is at 4.9.

I've also been in contact with Ken Partin and he said to put some leads on the line pressure solenoid and click it a bunch of times and test again. No change - LP stays at 5.0.

- Alternator voltage is 14.4 at battery.
- Checked TRS LP fuse. It's fine.

Any other thoughts before I get another VB?
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Old 09-06-2022, 12:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

I am surprised (ashamed?) I didn't suggest before: connect a gauge to read line-pressure, using a hose long enough to place the gauge where you can view it as the problem happens; and compare the gauge readings to what live-data shows for "LP commanded". Of course, when you first connect the gauge, do the simple "fuse pull" LP test!

Do I understand correctly, this is "slamming" in forward gears, as well as R?
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Old 09-06-2022, 01:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
I am surprised (ashamed?) I didn't suggest before: connect a gauge to read line-pressure, using a hose long enough to place the gauge where you can view it as the problem happens; and compare the gauge readings to what live-data shows for "LP commanded". Of course, when you first connect the gauge, do the simple "fuse pull" LP test!

Do I understand correctly, this is "slamming" in forward gears, as well as R?
No worries I considered looking into checking pressure but since I didn't have the tools put it out my mind. Yes, all gears slam including reverse.

The current VB was supposed to have the sonnax update (not sure if both). I figure prob just the main update though.

Considering all solenoids check good what would it signify if gauge pressure showed within specs? Outside of specs?
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Old 09-06-2022, 01:30 PM   #10
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

Unfortunately, there is no one "main" Sonnax update. There is difference in opinion about which is more likely to cure R slam problems. However, since this is slam in forward gears, I'm thinking it isn't one of the "usual" VB problems, maybe not even a VB problem at all.

Checking LP will tell us if it is slamming because LP is too high, or because the VB is not handling normal LP properly. If LP is too high, then you need to check the whole LP solenoid circuit. The coil resistance, even when read from the 10-pin connector, is only part of that circuit; more needs to be checked.

One common (and fairly easy) test is to swap the LP solenoid with one of the others, see if that makes any difference.
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Old 09-06-2022, 03:19 PM   #11
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
Unfortunately, there is no one "main" Sonnax update. There is difference in opinion about which is more likely to cure R slam problems. However, since this is slam in forward gears, I'm thinking it isn't one of the "usual" VB problems, maybe not even a VB problem at all.

Checking LP will tell us if it is slamming because LP is too high, or because the VB is not handling normal LP properly. If LP is too high, then you need to check the whole LP solenoid circuit. The coil resistance, even when read from the 10-pin connector, is only part of that circuit; more needs to be checked.

One common (and fairly easy) test is to swap the LP solenoid with one of the others, see if that makes any difference.
So even though a solenoid is testing fine ohm wise when checked directly at the solenoid body pins - it might still be the source of the problem / bad?

I think I might just buy an extra one and if it doesn't work I'll have one on hand if I need it. Sucks that this turned out to be such a head scratcher. I'll start looking for the line pressure test how-tos. Thanks for taking the time to explain things!
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Old 09-06-2022, 05:18 PM   #12
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

Yeah, there is a lot more to checking the solenoid valves than just resistance of the coils. I would prefer that you use a gauge to see if LP is high before going into more detail on the solenoids. Checking LP is actually fairly cheap and easy to do. Do you need detail on how to use a gauge for LP?
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Old 09-06-2022, 06:32 PM   #13
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
Yeah, there is a lot more to checking the solenoid valves than just resistance of the coils. I would prefer that you use a gauge to see if LP is high before going into more detail on the solenoids. Checking LP is actually fairly cheap and easy to do. Do you need detail on how to use a gauge for LP?
I just read this thread and lots of interesting info in it.
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=205191

Do you think one of those amazon $20 fluid pressure gauges are worth getting? I suppose I would also need to know where to hook it up to see if I need to get an extension. That's the general idea right?
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Old 09-06-2022, 08:50 PM   #14
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

I didn't see a link to the Amazon gauge; or is it buried in that old thread?

The gauge needs to be 300 psi, minimum, and you need about 4 feet of hose. The port on the trans that the hose connect to is common 1/8" FPT (male pipe needed on end of hose). If you are making this up yourself, common 1/4" air-line hose should hold for that 300# pressure, using small screw-type hose clamps. You don't need a terribly accurate gauge, just about any you find will do as long as it is 300# or not too much higher
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Old 09-07-2022, 12:14 AM   #15
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

Are you getting a transaxle code? When I got a code 45 due to slamming, I simply bent the prongs on the A/TRANS RELAY in order to make a tighter connection and the slamming stopped, hasn't come back and the code neither (after I cleared it). I have a 1991 SC, don't know if it's the same design as yours.
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Old 09-07-2022, 05:10 PM   #16
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
I didn't see a link to the Amazon gauge; or is it buried in that old thread?

The gauge needs to be 300 psi, minimum, and you need about 4 feet of hose. The port on the trans that the hose connect to is common 1/8" FPT (male pipe needed on end of hose). If you are making this up yourself, common 1/4" air-line hose should hold for that 300# pressure, using small screw-type hose clamps. You don't need a terribly accurate gauge, just about any you find will do as long as it is 300# or not too much higher
Sry about that I can see how my wording was confusing. Those were unrelated thoughts.

I've got some airline hose from when I had a compressor - I'll look into that. The $20 gauges on amazon go up to 300psi so that looks promising.

Is the 4 feet of hose more for convenience / ease of use or absolutely needed?
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Old 09-07-2022, 05:24 PM   #17
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

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Are you getting a transaxle code? When I got a code 45 due to slamming, I simply bent the prongs on the A/TRANS RELAY in order to make a tighter connection and the slamming stopped, hasn't come back and the code neither (after I cleared it). I have a 1991 SC, don't know if it's the same design as yours.
I have an actron CP9125. That would pick it up right? I don't recall ever getting a trans related code at all. I'll have to do some googling since the part you are talking about - I don't know its location or what it looks like.
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Old 09-07-2022, 07:00 PM   #18
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

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I have an actron CP9125. That would pick it up right? I don't recall ever getting a trans related code at all. I'll have to do some googling since the part you are talking about - I don't know its location or what it looks like.
I don't know about other ones, I have an OTC 4000E scanner I bought used. It is an OBD I and your car is OBD II. My Haynes Manual is for 1991 through 1996 and the A/TRANS relay is in the under-hood junction box. I had slamming occur several times and cured it (seemingly) by cleaning the probes on the relay. The last time I bent the prongs to make a tight fit. Haven't had the problem since. YMMV.
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Old 09-07-2022, 11:39 PM   #19
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

On my '94/95 gen1s the trans solenoid power comes through the fuel pump relay, which is on the panel inside the cabin.

The hose length is so you can bring the gauge inside the cabin (remove the rubber plug in the firewall where a clutch master cylinder would be), or just in front of the windshield. For just the fuse-pull test you don't need a hose at all, you could screw a gauge with 1/8" MPT directly into the trans. But to see what LP is doing during shifts and comparing it to live-data as you drive, you need to be able to bring the gauge out to a visible area. Could you get by with less than 4 feet? Probably, but I don't think you would ever need anything more than four.

Do you know where the spin-on filter for the tans is, over near the ignition coils? Below that filter are two electrical sensors: the larger one is the Turbine Speed Sensor (TSS) and the smaller one is for Trans Fluid Temperature (TFT). The TFT sensor is the one to remove to access LP. Disconnect the cable to either (or both) of those sensors and you should get the appropriate trouble-code; an easy check of whether your scanner will show trans codes.
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Old 09-08-2022, 12:35 PM   #20
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Default Re: Slamming Back After Input Shaft Nut And VB Repair

I'm not so sure about a full on driving test since when I stopped driving it the slams where so violent I felt lucky if I got home with the trans in one piece. I'm afraid I'll strip gears if I drive it just one more time. Hope I'm not in a bit of a double bind.

saturn_sensors.jpg

I believe these are the sensors you are talking about. I hooked up the code reader and I'm not getting any trans codes. Only code I'm showing is related to air intake. Checked the manual for the CP9125 and it shows many trans codes in the reference section so it looks to be capable, just none are coming up. Keep in mind I can't run the engine, not sure if that matters.

If I'm going to put everything back together to continue with line pressure testing I think I'll get that replacement solenoid for the LP - if it solves the problem at least I won't have to go into the VB again.

Sound like a plan?
---------------
I have a diagram of the underhood box and these are the relays shown:
Air pump
Fog lamp
A/C
Cooling fan
ABS
Dal relay

Can't find a diagram for the interior box but here it is. I believe the fuel pump relay should be there also on my 1999 SL2 model.
underdash_fuses_saturn.jpg

Still unsure of location of A/TRANS relay.
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