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Old 11-01-2021, 07:37 AM   #1
Ccrussell
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Default Po336

Hello,
This is an SL-1, engine freshening this past winter including rings bearings rebuilt cylinder head honing oil pump etc.
Car has been running great , but recently got an EGR fault that has been difficult to eliminate. Yesterday installed new EGR valve and cleaned the ports best I could with throttlebody cleaner and shop air.
Two hours ago while on cruise at 65 miles an hour going to work the tachometer would Sweep zero to normal intermittently with a noticeable loss of power and check engine light. Interestingly enough the cruise control would not disengage via the switch or tapping the brake pedal. When I got off the highway and came to an intersection I put the car in neutral it revs to about 4000 RPM then died and will not restart. I could definitely smell fuel. Right at this moment I am waiting on a tow truck this has not happened to me with any of my Saturns ever before.
Never been left stranded.
Help! Thoughts?
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Old 11-01-2021, 08:48 AM   #2
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Default Re: Po336

Any chance of a major intake leak?
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Old 11-01-2021, 09:20 AM   #3
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Default Re: Po336

I'd guess that both the new EGR and the install was faulty. A bad install can lead to it becoming loose and creating a vacuum leak while a faulty electronic part of the EGR could cause voltage issues in the rest of the car. Rather than suggesting buying another part, I'd put the old one back on and see what happens.
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Old 11-01-2021, 11:08 AM   #4
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Default Re: Po336

Hmmm,
Certainly shouldn’t be an intake manifold leak as that gasket was new when the motor was refreshed and it’s been running really great. I will check it though.
EGR was brand new from rock auto .
Looks to be equivalent as any other I have used in the past 15+ years of course we all know new in the box does not mean good.
I’m wondering gasket?
(Missed work wife is p/o, wants me out of Saturns entirely )
Stranded far from home, brought car to an old repair shop I used to work at.
Towing prices are HUGE!
Thanks for help
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Old 11-01-2021, 12:04 PM   #5
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Default Re: Po336

You may be one of a handful decoding P0336 - crankshaft position sensor 'A' circuit.Most here, including my L300, never see this error code but symptoms are almost universal to all Saturns. Yours is mounted behind the starter, the crankshaft sensor has two characteristics; outright failure killing the entire EFI system (no injector operation, dead fuel pump) or intermittent failure from engine heat (degraded sensor). The tach dropping out is one of the tell tale indicators. Starting rpm should show tach/engine speed. The lack of engine rpm during starting us another tell tale of a dead/intermittent crank sensor.

Did you try starting after letting the engine cool down 30 minutes?

The crank sensor is the electronic heart beat of the pcm because it supplies the precise timing signals to the pcm to operate; fuel pump, timing the ignition system for spark and pulse injectors. A degraded/worn sensor can be affected by engine heat, killing the EFI system until the engine cools down. After 30 minutes or so of cooling down, the engine may startup but as soon as engine heat returns, the sensor fails and kills the engine. A dead sensor will never allow the pcm to operate the EFI system. Resistance measurement of sensor is between 700-1200 ohms.
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Old 11-01-2021, 01:12 PM   #6
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Default Re: Po336

Is the shop going to fix it, or will you be doing it just using there facilities?

There may be a CKP sensor issue, or some other, that is preventing a re-start; but that un-commanded accel/revving has to be from some kind of "vacuum leak". There is no way the engine can produce the power to move off idle without letting in more air than intended. Whether that vacuum leak is due to stuck throttle/linkage, bad IAC, bad EGR, bad hose, bad brake booster, bad gasket, bad intake manifold, bad CC, etc. remains to be determined; but this surely is not just a CKP problem.

Last edited by billr; 11-01-2021 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 11-01-2021, 02:11 PM   #7
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Default Re: Po336

Hey
I could not restart the car. Smelled fuel, I’m guessing I flooded it.
Yes the shop is going to fix it. Long time friend of mine where I worked many moons ago. Too far away to tow it home.
Only thing I did indeed touch was the egr valve. Must be getting air from that source. Maybe I goofed when installing it. Not sure how but non- the -less, I am getting high idle. In fact now that I think about it, the cruise did disengage, because when I tried engaging it , I felt it lock ON.
Must be a vacuum leak in addition to crank sensor.
Worth mentioning ; I installed one of those “screened “ gaskets for the egr valve.
It is heavy cardboard, not exhaust gasket material like original. Could it have burned /blown out? Many thanks too you folks.
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Old 11-01-2021, 04:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: Po336

IF the engine runs at all, it's not a crank sensor fault.

Smelling gas may be a stuck open injector although there's little chance of it occurring unless the fuel filler ruptured and let unfiltered fuel into the fuel rail to feed all the injectors. Better to pull plugs and check for raw wet fuel on plugs. Fuel on plugs means injectors are operating which means the crank sensor is working since the pcm cannot pulse injectors unless the crank sensor is working.

Spark also relies on the crank sensor because spark is originally generated as a signal from the pcm, sent to the ignition control module to create high voltage for spark plugs.

You can share these facts with your mechanic if you trust him.
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Old 11-02-2021, 06:41 AM   #9
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Default Re: Po336

Ok ,
Informed my friend of scenario that I look place and conversations held here, with the caveat of “not telling you what to do”
Good honest type of person he is. He is looking into it, takes the load off of me for a little bit.
Will follow up here as outcome reveals itself.
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Old 11-03-2021, 01:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: Po336

The shop changed the crank position sensor and the car started. They say it runs but runs terrible. Almost like it jumped timing. They said they will run a compression test next. He checked the egr valve and said there were no leaks. Think I’ve got about 12 k on the engine since rebuild.
Bummed out . Cause I just put new struts and a new cat con on it as well.
May let this one go to car heaven.
I know I sound like I am quitting but what to do next? Pay charges for work done, tow it home? Then tear it apart? Cold coming , garage already full with another unrelated car flip.
Really like this car. Favorite Saturn of the bunch I’ve owned or currently owned.

Last edited by Ccrussell; 11-03-2021 at 01:19 PM. Reason: Add info
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Old 11-03-2021, 01:46 PM   #11
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Default Re: Po336

Please keep us advised on what they find. Losing slipping valve timing on these engines is pretty rare. Even if you did not replace the chain and guides during the previous rebuild, I would be surprised to find the chain had slipped.

Keep in mind that valve timing cannot possibly cause the "over-rev" situation you reported at first. That can only come from too much air getting in (vacuum leak); which could now be the cause of poor running and fairly easy to fix.

If the shop does not understand the correlation between the over-rev and a "vacuum leak"... you need a new shop.
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Old 11-03-2021, 02:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: Po336

New chinese CPS are suspect too, if I remember my forum history.
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Old 11-03-2021, 03:12 PM   #13
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Default Re: Po336

Here's an easy troubleshooting suggestion for egr valve tests; remove it and use a temporary soda can gasket to block off one or both ports underneath the egr valve. Put the egr valve back on. Aluminum soda can material is easy to fab into a temporary gasket. Blocking off the ports ensures the intake port isn't sucking in any exhaust gases from a partially opened egr valve. At idle or wide open throttle, the egr valve is closed. The pcm commands egr valve opening during acceleration and steady cruise for emissions control. If this temporary gasket works with a perfect idle returning, the egr valve is the problem. If idle remains erratic, remove this gasket.

In the event the egr valve is the cause of erratic idling then a sheet metal gasket or two coins used as gaskets to block off both ports can be used until replacing the egr valve.
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Old 11-04-2021, 12:12 AM   #14
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Default Re: Po336

AllDataDIY's info on P0336 says it's either wiring or EMI...not a sensor.
The S-Series puts the CKP in a dumb place, right next to not only the alternator (a major EMI source) but also the big battery cables (2nd biggest EMI source).

A new sensor may give just enough of a different/stronger signal to overcome some of the wiring issues, but it won't fix the wiring issues.
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Old 11-04-2021, 06:53 AM   #15
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Default Re: Po336

Ok . While the timing is wrong on all this, I told the shop to cease work. My intention to go clean the car out Friday afternoon.
They did a compression test and said it is 75 across all 4 cylinders. How can that be? The motor was just freshened, rings and reman cylinder head. New guides , timing set too. Machine shop never said this would require an overbore.in fact the cylinders had original crosshatching and no ridge.
I will do the EGR block off and new plugs Friday afternoon before I toss in the towel. See if this changes anything. Egr was only thing changed before this happened.
Interesting about the electrical interference. Nothing has changed over the life of this vehicle, running of cables etc. but that is curious.
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