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Old 08-02-2014, 04:11 PM   #41
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

Actual shear stability numbers are hard to come by, but I'm sure the nice Dex III fluids today have stability similar to Dex VI. This would make them end up with a higher viscosity.

What I'm really curious to know is what the Saturn Transaxle Fluid was actually like. I showed it before, where Saturn literature said the use of anything other than Saturn fluid could cause shifting problems. I would just have to assume it started with a higher viscosity out of the bottle than regular Dex III.
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Old 08-02-2014, 04:41 PM   #42
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

Hello, I found Mobile Delvac Synthetic ATF at a vendor for our company. I went there for Transdyne but they were out of gallon jugs. Only 5 gallon pails or 55 gallon drums. The service manager said he had gallon jugs of Delvac an it is as good as Transdyne. It is Allison TES-295 approved and recommended by Allison. It was $43.00 a gallon. Rick
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Old 08-02-2014, 05:05 PM   #43
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

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Originally Posted by CZECHLAGER View Post
Hello, I found Mobile Delvac Synthetic ATF at a vendor for our company. I went there for Transdyne but they were out of gallon jugs. Only 5 gallon pails or 55 gallon drums. The service manager said he had gallon jugs of Delvac an it is as good as Transdyne. It is Allison TES-295 approved and recommended by Allison. It was $43.00 a gallon. Rick
I think you've got the one name wrong, it's Transynd not Transdyne. But any TES -295 fluid should be a very good Dex III comparable fluid, and very stable. There are 6 or 8 of them now at least, including the Delvac.

Allison has listings for the fluids that meet the spec, as well as a locator for where you can buy it. In my case I have several places within a few miles of me.
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Old 08-02-2014, 05:44 PM   #44
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

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Originally Posted by DJKrohn View Post
Actual shear stability numbers are hard to come by, but I'm sure the nice Dex III fluids today have stability similar to Dex VI. This would make them end up with a higher viscosity.

What I'm really curious to know is what the Saturn Transaxle Fluid was actually like. I showed it before, where Saturn literature said the use of anything other than Saturn fluid could cause shifting problems. I would just have to assume it started with a higher viscosity out of the bottle than regular Dex III.
The viscosity was more or less identical to Dex-3, the original one. The Dex-3H that all of the universal Dexron/Mercon ATFs has a slightly lower initial viscosity, not significantly lower though. There was a different additive package in the Saturn fluid.
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Old 08-03-2014, 04:13 PM   #45
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

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I think you're reading way too much into this entire thing really. If we are to believe that the original Dex III formulations did in fact quickly reduce in viscosity, then most cars spent a lot of miles operating at those lower viscosity levels without problems. If in fact the non synthetic Dex III dropped that much in viscosity on a regular basis, and did so quickly, then the much more stable Dex VI would be a better choice. But GM doesn't want to admit that in normal use the Dex III isn't going to shear that quick and reduce in viscosity because.... well that wouldn't sell new synthetic fluids now would it?

A number of people here on the forums have used Dex VI, and most weren't even aware of the TSB until seeing about it on the forums. IIRC one member used it for some 40k miles without issue in his automatic, and only changed it after seeing the TSB.

Am I saying use Dex VI in the TAAT. Not at all. But those that did didn't have the gross failures and doom and gloom some are predicting. But then again if Dex III actually sheared down to lower viscosity than the Dex VI, there were be TAAT parts laying near every auto tranny S Series. And the reality is, there aren't.


There are tons of fluids that met the Dex III spec, and with some digging you can probably find out if any changed the formulation after GM pulled the Dex III spec. That change didn't make existing products change. You can get Dex/Merc fluids just as easy as you could back before Dex VI existed, well maybe almost as easy. From low cost conventionals to higher end synthetics, they all still exist.

The information is out there, just pick one.


As for all those heavy duty transmissions, most are made by Allison, and the Transynd fluid could qualify them for extended transmission warranties for a fairly low cost. Considering those things aren't cheap, they must be fairly sure of the fluid. The snake oi... ummm... Amsoil never got the certifications that the Transynd has, but claims to be superior. I wouldn't pay more for a doctor without med school training, but maybe some would.
It's worth noting that Dex VI was not compatible in the older Allison 1000 automatics not because of the viscosity or break down of the fluid, as you all keep punting around, but rather what the fluid did to the seals. The fluid will tend to hold up OK, but it's worth recalling that ATF is a mild solvent, and the chemistry of the newer Dex VI synthetic hydraulic fluid will apparently attack certain types of seals (viton seals on older Allison automatics in particular). I suspect this also why it's not recommended for TAAT per the service bulletin, is there may exist an incompatibility between the seal and the fluid, that may cause leaks over time. I suspect it's not as though your transmission will immediately start gushing as it may lead to a degradation of seals, with eventual leaks. As I recall, this is also why GM forbade running Dex VI instead of smurf oil (Autotrak-II) in the most transfer cases.

Relevant: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=3090111

Otherwise I think I agree with OldNuc here, though I've never personally used an AMSOil product, so I can't speak to that.
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Old 08-03-2014, 04:21 PM   #46
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

The pressure is calculated based on viscosity and temperature. There is no real pressure sensor so the PCM must adapt to thin or thick fluid at any given temperature. Seal compatibility would be a huge issue with a TAAT as not only are there clutch piston seals but those 2 tubes in the side cover have complex seals and failure of any seal and the trans is shot.
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Old 08-03-2014, 04:44 PM   #47
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

I knew the viscosity didn't seem to be the problem. In the thread, the source link is broken, but the worded it as "Dex 6 is thinner to start out but it only shears from approx 6.0 cSt down to 5.7 cSt while in service while a Dex 3 type fluid may start out at 7.5 cSt but shear all the way to a 4.5 cSt in normal service."

But it's crazy how T-IV has the same situation. What are you suppose to do when old types of fluid are gone? Better stock up!

If there's a seal issue with the TAAT, that makes Dex VI even more of a danger. Whereas people don't seem to notice any problem when using Dex VI in TAAT at first... I better hunt down my friends and family, tell them to flush it out.
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Old 08-03-2014, 04:53 PM   #48
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

Like the one person did with the MaxLife ATF, emailed Valvoline to confirm if it was ok with "viton" seals (assuming that is what maybe the TAAT uses).

Someone should do that with the Transynd and Torque-Drive just to verify, with it being a current fluid on the market
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Old 08-03-2014, 04:54 PM   #49
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

Post #45, follow the link.
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Old 08-03-2014, 05:24 PM   #50
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

Oh, I found a different post within that linked post

It doesn't mention the source, but when they talk about Dex III, they specify mineral-based.

"For a mineral-based Dexron III, the fluid may start out at 7.5 cST and shear down to 4.5 cSt within 30k miles. "

I've also read that it will shear down to 5.5 cSt within 10k miles.

But never mind the viscosity of different brand/types of fluid, I think the main concern is seal compatibility. That's what I would be looking out for.
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Old 08-03-2014, 05:38 PM   #51
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

The string of posts linked clearly state that Torque-Drive and Transynd among others are OK with Allison transmissions and if so then they are seal compatible. The entire inner story is in that string.
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Old 08-03-2014, 06:40 PM   #52
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

Looked in Maul-Mart last night...

Red jug - Valvoline MaxLife, Dexron VI

Blue jug - Valvoline Dex-Merc Dexron III

http://www.walmart.com/msharbor/ip/15125788?&veh=mweb

Blue jug is getting hard to find, but it's what you should use, I think.
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Old 08-03-2014, 08:22 PM   #53
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

Why not just go to a GMC dealer and tell them you have a pick-up with an Allison transmission and need TES-295 fluid?

Here's the definitive list from Allison:

http://www.allisontransmission.com/p...highway-fluids
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Old 08-03-2014, 08:36 PM   #54
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

If you go to the GMC dealer you will think the Amsoil price is a real bargain. Any of these are close to $50.00/gallon. Most large truck stops that do any repairs/fluid changes have the Transynd on hand. Full service truck stops do oil and fluid changes.
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Old 08-03-2014, 08:48 PM   #55
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

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Why not just go to a GMC dealer and tell them you have a pick-up with an Allison transmission and need TES-295 fluid?
My understanding is you don't want to get the fluid from GM because they don't address the compatibility issue with the Allison transmission. GM still recommends Dex-VI. It is only Allison that acknowledges the issue.

If GM had a unique fluid for the Allison, then they could also list that as the replacement for the Saturn TAAT. That's what they should have done, anyway.
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Old 08-03-2014, 08:59 PM   #56
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

I was wrong, turns out they have a fluid for it. But it sounds like it is rebottled Castrol Transynd, so you might as well buy Castrol because it will be cheaper. Or Ammsoil if you can get it easier.

OldNuc: You predict TranSynd is a lifetime fluid in the TAAT?

That would be a good deal.

Last edited by DJKrohn; 08-03-2014 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 08-04-2014, 01:02 AM   #57
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

I paid $35 for a gallon of Transynd three years ago at Interstate Power Systems, a local Allison dealer by Mall of America.

I've used both M1 and Transynd in an MP3. Transynd has much better cold weather performance than M1, especially below 0˚ F. The M1 tended to make the MP3 sluggish and sticky in below 0˚F temps, would not want to use M1 in a TAAT.
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Old 08-04-2014, 01:38 AM   #58
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

I loaded up on a Target clearance of Mobil D/M which has an Allison rating for cheap. It is so easy to do a drain/fill I may just do a yearly. Maybe change out filter every third year?
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Old 08-04-2014, 07:06 AM   #59
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

Amsoil runs long term use tests followed by complete teardowns to examine internal parts. The one they ran for Torque-Drive was in a fleet of garbage trucks. For those that have never noticed the garbage truck usually has an automatic, does many stops and starts, and is overloaded. This is incredibly hard on the transmissions and they fail regularly. The test was ran for 325,000 miles. Based on those tests and other experience with high quality synthetics it apears that the following should set you up for a lifetime fluid.
*Drain and refill with Torque-Drive and use new filter.
*Drive for 1 or 2 weeks then drain and refill with Torque-Drive and use new WIX or Baldwin filter.
*Change filter at 25,000-30,000 miles and sample fluid, send sample to lab.
*based on sample results continue with existing fluid and just make up for fluid lost in filter change and sample.

Transynd should have the same service life. The other products that meet the Allison spec may or may not as the Allison spec does not test service life and Allison does recommend a drain interval.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJKrohn View Post
I was wrong, turns out they have a fluid for it. But it sounds like it is rebottled Castrol Transynd, so you might as well buy Castrol because it will be cheaper. Or Ammsoil if you can get it easier.

OldNuc: You predict TranSynd is a lifetime fluid in the TAAT?

That would be a good deal.
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Old 08-04-2014, 02:32 PM   #60
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Default Re: Transmission fluid question beat to death

Thanks for clarifying it OldNuc!

On a side note, the Napa Gold 7101 filter I have (and plan on exchanging for a ATP 17795 from Napa) is stamped "Made in China" on the end of it.

The ATP 17795 from Napa does not say online where it is made and I don't have it yet.

The Wix 51516XP oil filters I recently bought online from Filter1 are made in the USA.
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