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Old 01-17-2012, 07:00 PM   #1
SW2STICKySHIFT
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Default 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

I recently swapped a 1996 DOHC engine into my 1999 DOCH saturn sw2.

(I didnt see the swap guide sticky)

I switched everything over from my 1999 motor, throttle body,map, fuel system, the exaust manifold required a tiny bit or grinding then went on... the cps was left on the 1996 motor and alternator ect ect...

MY PROBLEM IS I HAVE SPARK, FUEL, AND NO START. IT FLOODS HORIBLY AND BACK FIRES... it ran for 3 seconds open headers n shut off...

-Fuel pressure is 41psi, fuel in the cyclinders....(flood)

-Coils are good, spark at all four plugs and wired 4123 from coil. plugs gapped .040

The only thing i havent checked was the Timming Chain... the motor was in good running condition when pulled... so I looked else where for the problem..

HOW CAN I DISTINGUISH IF THE MOTORS MECHANICAL TIMMING IS CORRECT?
TIMMING MARKS???

I put the motor at TDC and pulled valve cover.. any way to check if the timming is correct via cam sprockets?
BOTH CAMS SAY FRT AT TOP RIGHT CORNERS AT TDC..??




LASTLY I KNOW THERE ARE HEAD DIFFRENCES BETWEEN THE 1996 and 1999..... ARE THE DIFFRENCES SO GREAT IT WOULD CAUSE THE MOTOR TO FLOOD AND BACKFIRE.... EVERYTIME I CRANK IT ITS GOES THUM THUM THUM pop.... .. totaly at a loss...

any ideas??Im thinking the head/valve diffrences in the motors is to great for the motor to run properly?

starting fluid makes for no fire at all.. can load a video and pictures shortly...

Last edited by SW2STICKySHIFT; 01-17-2012 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 01-17-2012, 07:12 PM   #2
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

The timing is fine. You can not run the engine open header as it will promptly flood. The fuel pressure in a 99 car should be 45-51psi so you have a problem but it will start with 40psi or so anyway, just not run long at WOT before all the valves end up in the muffler.

Tell me about what you did to the exhaust manifold.

Verify the ECTS is connected and the connector is clean.

Your wire routing may be incorrect.
Ignition wire routing as seen when looking at the engine and coils from the front, hood open, your left to right.

Engine
1-2-3-4

4-1-2-3
coil towers

Connect the matching numbers with a plug wire.

This gen-2 to early gen-3 has been done before and can be done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SW2STICKySHIFT View Post
I recently swapped a 1996 DOHC engine into my 1999 DOCH saturn sw2.

(I didnt see the swap guide sticky)

I switched everything over from my 1999 motor, throttle body,map, fuel system, the exaust manifold required a tiny bit or grinding then went on... the cps was left on the 1996 motor and alternator ect ect...

MY PROBLEM IS I HAVE SPARK, FUEL, AND NO START. IT FLOODS HORIBLY AND BACK FIRES... it ran for 3 seconds open headers n shut off...

-Fuel pressure is 41psi, fuel in the cyclinders....(flood)

-Coils are good, spark at all four plugs and wired 4132 from coil. plugs gapped .040

The only thing i havent checked was the Timming Chain... the motor was in good running condition when pulled... so I looked else where for the problem..

HOW CAN I DISTINGUISH IF THE MOTORS MECHANICAL TIMMING IS CORRECT?
TIMMING MARKS???

I put the motor at TDC and pulled valve cover.. any way to check if the timming is correct via cam sprockets?
BOTH CAMS SAY FRT AT TOP RIGHT CORNERS AT TDC..??




LASTLY I KNOW THERE ARE HEAD DIFFRENCES BETWEEN THE 1996 and 1999..... ARE THE DIFFRENCES SO GREAT IT WOULD CAUSE THE MOTOR TO FLOOD AND BACKFIRE.... EVERYTIME I CRANK IT ITS GOES THUM THUM THUM pop.... .. totaly at a loss...

any ideas??Im thinking the head/valve diffrences in the motors is to great for the motor to run properly?

starting fluid makes for no fire at all.. can load a video and pictures shortly...
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Old 01-17-2012, 07:13 PM   #3
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1996 SW2
Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

Spark plug wiring order is 4-1-2-3.

If the FRT was exactly right-side-up with the crank at TDC, the cam timing is correct.

Does the '99 engine have the same spacing between the cams as the '96? Does it have the clips for the spark plug wires molded into the left end of the valve cover?

Did the donor engine run in the car from which it was removed? Was a compression test done?

Try starting it in "clear flood" mode - wide open throttle while cranking with the key.
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Old 01-17-2012, 07:15 PM   #4
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

The 99 is the narrow head engine, or should be if it is actually a 99 model.
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Old 01-17-2012, 07:59 PM   #5
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Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

Quote:
Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
Spark plug wiring order is 4-1-2-3.

If the FRT was exactly right-side-up with the crank at TDC, the cam timing is correct.

Does the '99 engine have the same spacing between the cams as the '96? Does it have the clips for the spark plug wires molded into the left end of the valve cover?

Did the donor engine run in the car from which it was removed? Was a compression test done?

Try starting it in "clear flood" mode - wide open throttle while cranking with the key.
ok I confirmed plug wiring was correct I just typed it wrong...

Here is a picture of each cam at Tdc ( looks as you said just to confirm)

NEVERMIND IT WOULDNT LET ME... NOT ENUFF POST

I cant confirm if the cam spacing is the same as i had to scrap it to pay for the new motor...

BUT it does have the spark plug clips on the left side...

The donor engine was in good running order just after the years and its 246,XXX mile birthday was very low on compression. No test was done on the 1996 motor i saw it run before they pulled it.. ran strong..

clear flood mode no start.. im going to hook up the downpipe to headers...
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:16 PM   #6
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1996 SW2
Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

Photo - Use the "Attach" feature (paper clip icon above the editor window) to attach photos. That's better than linking to other sites anyway.

The old motor had clips molded into the valve cover for the spark plug wires, on the left end. Does the new one have these?

Wait - the '96 IS the donor engine, no? Isn't that what's in the car now?
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:36 PM   #7
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

There is a 96 in a 99 with all the 99 sensors. There is no head pipe attached. As I said above, it will promptly flood out very bad with no exhaust connected. I still want to know how a 99 manifold was grafted onto a 96.

The system will promptly go closed loop and the O2 sensor will see the great outdoors and pour max fuel in the engine.
Once the plugs are soaked and the cylinders are washed down with fuel the plugs should be replaced and the cylinder walls oiled.

Last edited by OldNuc; 01-17-2012 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:39 PM   #8
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Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

Quote:
Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
Photo - Use the "Attach" feature (paper clip icon above the editor window) to attach photos. That's better than linking to other sites anyway.

The old motor had clips molded into the valve cover for the spark plug wires, on the left end. Does the new one have these?

Wait - the '96 IS the donor engine, no? Isn't that what's in the car now?
ok here some photos, the car is a 1999 SW2 5 speed. Motor i put in is a 1996. Valve covers look the same.. the heads are in fact different in terms of exaust manis...

these are the cams at tdc.. and valve cover
Attached Images
File Type: jpg EXAUST CAm.jpg (132.8 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg INTAKE CAM TDC.jpg (139.3 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg VALVE COVER.jpg (104.6 KB, 14 views)
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:42 PM   #9
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Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
There is a 96 in a 99 with all the 99 sensors. There is no head pipe attached. As I said above, it will promptly flood out very bad with no exhaust connected. I still want to know how a 99 manifold was grafted onto a 96.

The system will promptly go closed loop and the O2 sensor will see the great outdoors and pour max fuel in the engine.

I got you, I connected the exhaust to the headers.. and it still back fires and thumps.. I did see that other O2 sensor down by the hangers that wasnt getting gas flow..

still spits like crazy... IS THE CPS ON THE 1996 the same AS THE 199, I DIDNT REPLACE THAT SENSOR.. that one im using is from the 1996...
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:44 PM   #10
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

Quote:
Originally Posted by SW2STICKySHIFT View Post
I got you, I connected the exhaust to the headers.. and it still back fires and thumps.. I did see that other O2 sensor down by the hangers that wasnt getting gas flow..

still spits like crazy... IS THE CPS ON THE 1996 the same AS THE 199, I DIDNT REPLACE THAT SENSOR.. that one im using is from the 1996...
Yes, it is the same and the crank timing is the same.
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:46 PM   #11
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

Did you put the 99 EGR on it?
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:48 PM   #12
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

Would you post up a wider shot of the engine showing the plugs and coils in the same pix?
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:49 PM   #13
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

You are using the 99 PCM right?
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:53 PM   #14
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Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
The timing is fine. You can not run the engine open header as it will promptly flood. The fuel pressure in a 99 car should be 45-51psi so you have a problem but it will start with 40psi or so anyway, just not run long at WOT before all the valves end up in the muffler.

Tell me about what you did to the exhaust manifold.

Verify the ECTS is connected and the connector is clean.

Your wire routing may be incorrect.
Ignition wire routing as seen when looking at the engine and coils from the front, hood open, your left to right.

Engine
1-2-3-4

4-1-2-3
coil towers

Connect the matching numbers with a plug wire.

This gen-2 to early gen-3 has been done before and can be done.
OK as far as the ects... Its the "new kind" i had it replaced, could that cause all this rukus? but i dont have coolant in the car fixing that now... and HERE ARE THE PHOTOS OF THE EXAUST MANIFOLD DIFFERENCES...

the 1996 was the same "triangle at the bottom" but it was cocked the wrong direction...

the 1999 manifold had a different bolt pattern and I had to trim the top bolt holes to get the manifold in there and get only the 3 bottom bolt holes to line up... the holes where different sizes.. I had it open headers becasue i was afriad the 1999 manifold was clogging the exhaust flow.. even had it loose.. no go..

first is the 1996 manifold
second is the 1999 manifold on the car.. had to trim the top bolt holes for it to fit.. they didnt line up anyways..
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1996 mani.jpg (124.4 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg 1999 mani.jpg (152.8 KB, 14 views)
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
You are using the 99 PCM right?
yes im using the 1999 ECU.. what exactly do you mean PCM?? computer right?

those engine shots are coming
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:02 PM   #16
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Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Would you post up a wider shot of the engine showing the plugs and coils in the same pix?
Heres a shot of the engine and wires spread out so you can see their exact route.
i can get any other shot you need..
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SATURN ENGINE FULL.jpg (118.2 KB, 15 views)
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:15 PM   #17
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

OK, #1and #4 must run next to each other from the coil to the head and be in a couple of wire clips.

How old are the plugs and wires and what brand of plug?
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:19 PM   #18
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

For some reason this all sounds like an ignition problem. Are the coils off of the 99 or 96 and was the engine thy were last attached to running correctly?
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:59 PM   #19
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Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
OK, #1and #4 must run next to each other from the coil to the head and be in a couple of wire clips.

How old are the plugs and wires and what brand of plug?

wires are a year or so old.. not really been used been sitting... the plugs are new AUTOLITES... ( I have bosh one but they are soaked n fouled.)
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:00 PM   #20
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Default Re: 1999 Sw2 SWAP TROUBLE... 1996 in a 1999 sw? FAILURE???

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
For some reason this all sounds like an ignition problem. Are the coils off of the 99 or 96 and was the engine thy were last attached to running correctly?

they are 1996 coils...!! this could be it?? yes they where in good working order on the engine before them.. Im going to get new coils.. cant hurt
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