SaturnFans.com
saturnfans.com - classifieds - forums


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series Tech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-23-2022, 01:47 PM   #1
Silverblu02SL2
Member
Silverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the roughSilverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the roughSilverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: NYC
Posts: 448

2002 SL2
Default Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

Hey all, haven't posted in a long time. Still have my 2002 SL2 with 62k orig miles (did not sell it). Since I did all the work to get it inspection ready, I've still have not registered it, it's been sitting in the driveway. I'd start it from time to time to move it up/ down the driveway, always started and idled nicely w/o any error codes. Last week I went to start/ move it and it idled kind of rough and the brake pedal felt very soft. I pumped it a few times and it did not help to make the pedal feel any better. I moved the car a few feet slowly and the car barely braked when I stepped on the pedal. Got out to look and saw a puddle behind the car and streaming leak from under the driver's seat. I put a pan there to catch the leak. Checked the master cyl and level was sitting on the botton. Haven't jacked up the car up to have a look yet since I was pretty disgusted to have to deal with it now that cold weather is here.

I've done brake lines on other cars but never on a Saturn. What material are the brake lines made of?
...
1/28/2019 2002 SL2 w 62k miles
Silverblu02SL2 is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 11-23-2022, 02:00 PM   #2
fetchitfido
Super Member
fetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant future
 
fetchitfido's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,207
 

2001 SC2
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

Factory lines are steel.
Nicopp is easier to work with as it's softer and you can get a 3/16in 25ft kit on Amazon for under $40, including 16 fittings. Much better than the FLAPS wanting $30+ for a single 6ft length of it and 2 fittings.
fetchitfido is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2022, 02:49 PM   #3
trottida
Master Member
trottida has much to be proud oftrottida has much to be proud oftrottida has much to be proud oftrottida has much to be proud oftrottida has much to be proud oftrottida has much to be proud oftrottida has much to be proud oftrottida has much to be proud oftrottida has much to be proud of
 
trottida's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North of North of Toronto, Northern Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,077
 

1999 SL2
2001 SL1
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

If you're just moving it around the driveway you can pinch that line with a pair of vice grips before the leak. Keep the vice grips on it. Top up your master cylinder and that will get you through.
...
1999 SL2 MT (311,300 km @ 01/2023)
2012 Ford Focus SEL HB MT
2011 Suburban LT

Past Saturns
2001 SL1 MT (438,500 km 11y)
1993 SW2 AT (10y)
2001 LW200 MT (3.5y)
1992 SL2 MT (5y)

:canada:
trottida is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2022, 03:31 PM   #4
Waiex191
Master Member
Waiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to behold
 
Waiex191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Poplar Grove, IL
Posts: 3,691

1999 SL2
1998 SC2
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
Factory lines are steel.
Nicopp is easier to work with as it's softer and you can get a 3/16in 25ft kit on Amazon for under $40, including 16 fittings. Much better than the FLAPS wanting $30+ for a single 6ft length of it and 2 fittings.
You have to measure perfectly and no screwups to succeed with 25'. I recommend a 50' roll.
...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018
Waiex191 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2022, 05:03 PM   #5
Silverblu02SL2
Member
Silverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the roughSilverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the roughSilverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: NYC
Posts: 448

2002 SL2
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

Just jacked it up and looked under. Both lines under the driver's seat are wet, the one that goes to the driver's rear looks more wet. Driveway is on slight incline with car parked nose up. I am draining the line at the driver's rear caliper. Tomorrow I will blow air into the line to find exactly where the leak is, which is really a waste of time since I should replace both lines to the rear because the one currently not leaking is not far behind from the looks of it. Have not checked the condition of the front lines. Hopefully they are better protected and not rusted out like the rears and not need replacement. The rear lines look like a pita job snaking all over. Any tips / links to posts from those whose done the job?

I should have what's left of a 100' roll of Copper Nickel 3/16" line I bought quite a few years ago. I have a flaring tool for double flare but not sure if it also does bubble flare. Which one is used on the Saturn?
...
1/28/2019 2002 SL2 w 62k miles
Silverblu02SL2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2022, 05:46 PM   #6
93twincam
Member
93twincam is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Michigan
Posts: 313

2002 SL1
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

I just repaired the lines on my SL1 in the same spot. I spliced in new line in the rotted sections since the rest of the lines looked decent and I didn't want to run all new lines.

I know you said you have a flare tool, but may I suggest getting this tool if you just have the generic parts store tool. https://www.amazon.com/Titan-Tools-5...a-568481740226

My local O'Reilly had one on the shelf for a few bucks more than Amazon. Far superior tool over the generic ones. Only downside is it only does one size of line.
...
2002 SL1 5 speed - 165,xxx - Current daily
1993 SC2 5 speed - 200k - Unfortunately sold
2002 Silverado Z71 - 185,xxx
2007 Impala 3.5L - 365,xxx - Still running good, daily backup
93twincam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2022, 06:11 PM   #7
billr
Master Member
billr is a splendid one to beholdbillr is a splendid one to beholdbillr is a splendid one to beholdbillr is a splendid one to beholdbillr is a splendid one to beholdbillr is a splendid one to beholdbillr is a splendid one to behold
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,890
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

I think they are bubble flare.
billr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2022, 06:50 PM   #8
Waiex191
Master Member
Waiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to behold
 
Waiex191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Poplar Grove, IL
Posts: 3,691

1999 SL2
1998 SC2
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

Bubble flare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post
Nicopp is the way to go. Both my saturns and my $200 Buick are all nicopp now.

Here is the flare tool you need:
https://www.amazon.com/OTC-4504-Stin.../dp/B0015PMZMU

Here are the new nuts. Yes you can reuse the old ones. Sometimes they don't survive though.
https://www.amazon.com/Metric-Brake-.../dp/B01DAQ0O9W

I can't remember if this link is for 25' or 50'. If you have 50' plenty to do the whole car.
https://www.amazon.com/Nickel-Copper.../dp/B00HFL8BGM

You also need metric flare wrenches. I'll leave that Amazon/Harbor Freight search as homework.

Check out my two threads. There is brake stuff in there somewhere.

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=230898

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=234273

https://buickforums.com/forums/threa...century.52293/

Ok, that was 3 threads, no charge for the $200 Buick documentation.

Don't worry about the spring things. Not really required.

Those nuts are stamped steel. A little PB blaster and they should come off. And you can get new ones at your FLAPS or on Amazon. The real hazard is the studs are weak and may snap off. I got 1/4-20 stainless screws and drilled a hole through the floor. Details on my '99 thread.
...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018
Waiex191 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2022, 06:51 PM   #9
Silverblu02SL2
Member
Silverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the roughSilverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the roughSilverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: NYC
Posts: 448

2002 SL2
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

From what I read, double flare (aka inverted flare) withstands higher pressure than bubble flare and is what's recommended on brake lines. Guess I'll find out what's on the Saturn when I remove the fittings.
...
1/28/2019 2002 SL2 w 62k miles
Silverblu02SL2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2022, 06:59 PM   #10
93twincam
Member
93twincam is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Michigan
Posts: 313

2002 SL1
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

I think you'll have to make bubble on the ends that attach to the master, but elsewhere I would use double flare if at all possible.

Please do yourself a huge favor and get that Titan 3/16 double flare tool I linked to. The other tool like the one in the previous post works, but only for a while and they're finicky. The titan tool makes a perfect flare, every time and so far hasn't worn out on me, even after using steel brake line. Best ~$50 you'll spend on brake tools.
...
2002 SL1 5 speed - 165,xxx - Current daily
1993 SC2 5 speed - 200k - Unfortunately sold
2002 Silverado Z71 - 185,xxx
2007 Impala 3.5L - 365,xxx - Still running good, daily backup
93twincam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2022, 08:19 PM   #11
Waiex191
Master Member
Waiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to behold
 
Waiex191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Poplar Grove, IL
Posts: 3,691

1999 SL2
1998 SC2
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

All the parts on the Saturn are set up for metric bubble flares. They work fine. I'm not sure why old skool double flares would be considered better. I did a lot of them on my 60s and 70s cars and I don't prefer them.
...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018
Waiex191 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2022, 10:31 PM   #12
Silverblu02SL2
Member
Silverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the roughSilverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the roughSilverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: NYC
Posts: 448

2002 SL2
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post
All the parts on the Saturn are set up for metric bubble flares. They work fine. I'm not sure why old skool double flares would be considered better. I did a lot of them on my 60s and 70s cars and I don't prefer them.
OK, so it's bubble flares, thanks! I think I have a bubble flaring tool similar to the one you linked to. Have to round up everything and do some practice bubbles flares. Checked out your rebuild thread. Did you start from the master cyl end to make the runs? The nuts/ studs for the plastic brake line retainer blocks are very rusty. If I use penetrating oil and an impact wrench, will I get them off w/o snapping?
...
1/28/2019 2002 SL2 w 62k miles
Silverblu02SL2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2022, 12:12 AM   #13
Waiex191
Master Member
Waiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to behold
 
Waiex191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Poplar Grove, IL
Posts: 3,691

1999 SL2
1998 SC2
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

I think we ran the lines to the MC from underneath and then screwed them in,. Then work backwards to the hose. With nicopp you can easily bend it for routing. Just get the length right by measuring the old line. Or search for FFR brake line length, if I remember correctly.

Regarding the studs that hold the brake clips up, some will break. We drilled a hole in the floor for a 1/4-20 stainless screw and locknut.


That's from page 9 of my '99 rebuild thread.

Edit:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=236929
...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018
Waiex191 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2022, 09:36 AM   #14
93twincam
Member
93twincam is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Michigan
Posts: 313

2002 SL1
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post
I think we ran the lines to the MC from underneath and then screwed them in,. Then work backwards to the hose. With nicopp you can easily bend it for routing. Just get the length right by measuring the old line. Or search for FFR brake line length, if I remember correctly.

Regarding the studs that hold the brake clips up, some will break. We drilled a hole in the floor for a 1/4-20 stainless screw and locknut.


That's from page 9 of my '99 rebuild thread.

Edit:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=236929
When you drilled the holes for the 1/4" screws, did you pull up the carpet? What sealer did you use to prevent water intrusion?
...
2002 SL1 5 speed - 165,xxx - Current daily
1993 SC2 5 speed - 200k - Unfortunately sold
2002 Silverado Z71 - 185,xxx
2007 Impala 3.5L - 365,xxx - Still running good, daily backup
93twincam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2022, 12:27 PM   #15
Waiex191
Master Member
Waiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to behold
 
Waiex191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Poplar Grove, IL
Posts: 3,691

1999 SL2
1998 SC2
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

I pulled up the carpet. No sealer, other than the torque of the bolt. The plastic bracket sort of acts like a gasket.
...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018
Waiex191 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2022, 04:29 PM   #16
Silverblu02SL2
Member
Silverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the roughSilverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the roughSilverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: NYC
Posts: 448

2002 SL2
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

Were the original plastic bracket mounting bolts through bolts like your 1/4-20 or were they welded studs to the body?
...
1/28/2019 2002 SL2 w 62k miles
Silverblu02SL2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2022, 06:09 PM   #17
Waiex191
Master Member
Waiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to behold
 
Waiex191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Poplar Grove, IL
Posts: 3,691

1999 SL2
1998 SC2
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverblu02SL2 View Post
Were the original plastic bracket mounting bolts through bolts like your 1/4-20 or were they welded studs to the body?
Cheesy spot welded studs and stamped steel nuts. All S Series should be the same.
...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018
Waiex191 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2022, 11:17 AM   #18
Silverblu02SL2
Member
Silverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the roughSilverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the roughSilverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: NYC
Posts: 448

2002 SL2
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post
Cheesy spot welded studs and stamped steel nuts. All S Series should be the same.
Stamped steel nuts? Cheesy for sure, work of the accountant, not engineer! Isn't there a law that brake lines should be made of rust proof materials. Imagine if the leak happened while I was driving instead of in my driveway, couldn't stop and caused an accident?

So you drilled through the spot welds? Instead of through bolts, I am thinking of using self tapping stainless screws with RTV between plastic line holder and body. What do you think?
...
1/28/2019 2002 SL2 w 62k miles
Silverblu02SL2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2022, 12:00 PM   #19
Waiex191
Master Member
Waiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to beholdWaiex191 is a splendid one to behold
 
Waiex191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Poplar Grove, IL
Posts: 3,691

1999 SL2
1998 SC2
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverblu02SL2 View Post
Stamped steel nuts? Cheesy for sure, work of the accountant, not engineer! Isn't there a law that brake lines should be made of rust proof materials. Imagine if the leak happened while I was driving instead of in my driveway, couldn't stop and caused an accident?

So you drilled through the spot welds? Instead of through bolts, I am thinking of using self tapping stainless screws with RTV between plastic line holder and body. What do you think?
I think others have used self-tappers for the same job. That should be fine. I think I used a 1/4" pop rivet for one of them. OldNuc didn't like it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Spray those aluminum rivets with heavy undercoating on all sides or the salt and galvanic corrosion will dissolve them rapidly.
...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018
Waiex191 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2022, 02:20 PM   #20
Silverblu02SL2
Member
Silverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the roughSilverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the roughSilverblu02SL2 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: NYC
Posts: 448

2002 SL2
Default Re: Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

Did you remove the old line in one piece as a template to make the bends in the new line?

What I thought was what's left of a 100' roll of CuNi line did not look long enough to do both rears so it must have been a 25' roll. Just ordered a 25' kit from ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/304665849905
...
1/28/2019 2002 SL2 w 62k miles
Silverblu02SL2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Soft brake pedal. lrbraner Aura General 12 12-01-2020 11:01 PM
Help with soft brake pedal irateb Ion General 18 12-09-2015 10:26 AM
Soft brake pedal? windblownmonkey Ion General 18 05-30-2009 06:32 PM
brake pedal too soft-goes to the floor easily PlasticCarsRock S-Series Tech 10 04-18-2008 09:20 PM
Soft Brake Pedal Gardenof_E Miscellaneous Tech 6 04-15-2003 08:42 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:47 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.