Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

[billr]

Has anybody tried adding the "weep hole", as suggested in replies #11 and #14? That seems to be the practical solution to the seal wear. Maybe even JB-weld a return to the trans case so no seal is even needed.

That doesn't take care of bearing replacement though. That is still going to be an expensive conversion. I peeked at that link to RodneyD, it isn't clear to me that the whole kit is provided for $179. I think that may be for only the sleeve. Also, it sounds like it is based on a NOS bearing that may also disappear. A lasting solution (regardless of price) will have to be based on a standard inch/metric bearing. There are some options along that line, discussed earlier in this thread, but none likely to be cheap.

I also wonder how long a plain bushing in place of that roller would last, with just "splash lube". A bushing could be made to that odd size fairly cheaply.

[bumpdraft]

Originally Posted by billr

I also wonder how long a plain bushing in place of that roller would last, with just "splash lube". A bushing could be made to that odd size fairly cheaply.

What I was suggesting was, select a larger quill roller-bearing assembly from a different vehicle that uses a larger quill roller-bearing assembly. Then, press a sleeve onto the Input Shaft of our Saturns so that the Input Shaft fits the larger quill roller-bearing. ...that’s all I’ve got. I have zero competence in the actual execution...

[SLfun]

I thought of a temporary, slightly crazy solution to possibly keep trans oil off our clutches:

I was thinking of running the vent tube from the top of the trans to the intake tube, creating a vacuum inside the transmission and thereby possibly keeping oil from seeping past the quill seal.

It shouldn't be enough suction to suck oil out of the trans, but if the quill seal is leaking and since the trans is more or less a sealed unit, this could in theory suck a bit of air past the perished seal and keep oil from escaping?

Of course this may also introduce dirt into the trans oil, and maybe even the motor, but if the clutch gets oiled again I can't drive the car anyways

[cgg17]

Originally Posted by SLfun

I thought of a temporary, slightly crazy solution to possibly keep trans oil off our clutches:

I was thinking of running the vent tube from the top of the trans to the intake tube, creating a vacuum inside the transmission and thereby possibly keeping oil from seeping past the quill seal.

It shouldn't be enough suction to suck oil out of the trans, but if the quill seal is leaking and since the trans is more or less a sealed unit, this could in theory suck a bit of air past the perished seal and keep oil from escaping?

Of course this may also introduce dirt into the trans oil, and maybe even the motor, but if the clutch gets oiled again I can't drive the car anyways

Really a "thinking outside of the box" idea, but I like it. Vacuum would help the seals to perform better, just like crankshaft seals on the engine.

[SSarge]

The (#28 21120405) bearing assembly is included as part of the bellhousing casting (#29 HOUSING - CLUTCH 21120284).

There is one available from Vintage Parts, Inc (VPARTSINC.COM) for $106.35 plus shipping. I have bought many parts to repair my 2002 SL2 from this company.

CLUTCH ASM & MOUNTING.jpg

You could just replace the entire bellhousing or remove the bearing assembly and install in your bellhousing.

[billr]

Wow, sounds too good to be true; that whole casting assembly for only $106

I hope somebody orders one to confirm it is legit.

[Chub]

Originally Posted by SSarge

The (#28 21120405) bearing assembly is included as part of the bellhousing casting (#29 HOUSING - CLUTCH 21120284).

There is one available from Vintage Parts, Inc (VPARTSINC.COM) for $106.35 plus shipping. I have bought many parts to repair my 2002 SL2 from this company.

Attachment 66250

You could just replace the entire bellhousing or remove the bearing assembly and install in your bellhousing.

Wow, thanks for finding this. It really does sound too good to be true, but it is worth the risk for me. I found it cross-listed by them on eBay and I bought it. We'll see what ends up at my house. I did find this part number listed at a few other retailers, but not at that price. So if this works out, there will be a couple more out there for people in my situation.

In the meantime I am still going to put some Blue Devil in my trans and spray brake cleaner on the friction disc. Also, I like the thought of the hooking it up to vacuum idea.

I'll update the thread once I get the parts but it looks like it will be 2-3 weeks to get here.

[93twincam]

I like a good challenge, so I started some digging. I found 2 sources of the clutch housing 21120284 that claim to have inventory but don't have a product description or image. I summited detailed information requests, including inventory numbers on hand.

I also found one source that claims to have inventory of the input shaft bearing, 21120405, but they require you send a part request to even try to order. So I sent a request on that as well. If they do in fact have the part in inventory, I will try to find out how many and let you guys know.

I'm not going to post links at this moment because I don't want a random web surfer to scoop up the parts if they are in fact available. Pending the results of my info requests, I will update the thread.

I will note, both parts are offered at very reasonable prices, so fingers crossed they actually have them!

[bumpdraft]

Originally Posted by SSarge

The (#28 21120405) bearing assembly is included as part of the bellhousing casting (#29 HOUSING - CLUTCH 21120284).

There is one available from Vintage Parts, Inc (VPARTSINC.COM) for $106.35 plus shipping. I have bought many parts to repair my 2002 SL2 from this company.

Attachment 66250

You could just replace the entire bellhousing or remove the bearing assembly and install in your bellhousing.

On eBay, I entered 21120284 and there is one, new, in LA, Calif. for ~$150

Cheaper than having tooling made for making a quill bearing, by several zeros.

[trottida]

I found the housing NOS for $88.63 USD plus shipping. I don't need one but almost feel compelled to scoop it up. Add in shipping to Canada and it is close to $300 CAD. In the States it looks like it would be about $130 USD. It looks to be at a dealer in Tucson Arizona.

[Chub]

Well, it actually was too good to be true. My housing came today and there was nothing else included with or installed in it. It was definitely worth the shot. On the other hand, I've never seen such a shiny piece of Saturn transmission. Back to the drawing board, I guess. Maybe it would be worth trying to make a drain or something of the like but that is definitely outside of my expertise. Anyway, I added bars leaks sweller to the trans and sprayed brake cleaner on the clutch with the engine running and clutch held down via the inspection port. Will report back how it works later next week. If it does work I will have to get one of those really long can straws so I can just use the vents on the top of the trans for cleaner application.

[93twincam]

Originally Posted by Chub

Well, it actually was too good to be true. My housing came today and there was nothing else included with or installed in it. It was definitely worth the shot. On the other hand, I've never seen such a shiny piece of Saturn transmission. Back to the drawing board, I guess. Maybe it would be worth trying to make a drain or something of the like but that is definitely outside of my expertise. Anyway, I added bars leaks sweller to the trans and sprayed brake cleaner on the clutch with the engine running and clutch held down via the inspection port. Will report back how it works later next week. If it does work I will have to get one of those really long can straws so I can just use the vents on the top of the trans for cleaner application.

Bummer! That is disappointing. I'm still waiting to hear back from the 3 sources I contacted. I'm hoping the delay in reply is due to the holidays. Hopefully they will reply with some good info before Christmas.

[bumpdraft]

I think it’s time to stop buying things online when there is not a real photograph of what you’re buying.
We are living in the year 2022. This is The Future
...Where:
1) Everyone selling online has a digital camera.
2) Societal “norms”, like honesty and attention to detail, ...are rare.

[93twincam]

Originally Posted by bumpdraft

I think it’s time to stop buying things online when there is not a real photograph of what you’re buying.
We are living in the year 2022. This is The Future
...Where:
1) Everyone selling online has a digital camera.
2) Societal “norms”, like honesty and attention to detail, ...are rare.

I agree, that's why I requested more information from the sources I found. I asked specifically for images and to ensure the seal and other components come with the housing.

[cgg17]

Chub, how full is your trans case?

OldNuc often suggested filling it to the 1/2 way mark on the dip stick to stop quill leakage.

[Chub]

Originally Posted by bumpdraft

I think it’s time to stop buying things online when there is not a real photograph of what you’re buying.
We are living in the year 2022. This is The Future
...Where:
1) Everyone selling online has a digital camera.
2) Societal “norms”, like honesty and attention to detail, ...are rare.

This might be true but what I bought was a factory sealed box from Saturn. A picture wouldn't really have helped if they were trying to sell it as a new in box unit. I was fine with taking the risk since it was way cheaper than the used car market here since a trans failure is pushing me that way. Parts will always be getting more scarce from here on out...

[Chub]

Originally Posted by cgg17

Chub, how full is your trans case?

OldNuc often suggested filling it to the 1/2 way mark on the dip stick to stop quill leakage.

I definitely remember his advice but thanks for mentioning it again since it is worth repeating. I had it at the halfway point when I put this trans in service 1year or 10k miles ago. I checked the level when I added the seal sweller and it was down to the bottom of the cross hatches. So I leaked that much over the course of the year. Going forward I'm going to keep it as low as possible.

[93twincam]

Originally Posted by cgg17

Non-existent. I called a gm dealer that searched the nationwide inventory. These seals/ bearing assemblies are no longer available.

I found an off the shelf bearing and seal that could be pressed into either a new machined casing, or a modified original casing. The issue I am up against at this point is the difference in size between the shaft OD and bearing/ seal ID. A sleeve would be needed, but the sleeve would have to be hardened and fitted over the shaft, as the shaft is also the inner race of the roller bearing.

So you found a bearing and seal with the correct OD to press into the housing, but the wrong ID to fit over the output shaft? I would think the bearing and seal are a "standard" size, that could be pressed into the tube once the crimp is cut off and the old seal and bearing removed. Was that what you're trying to accomplish?

I don't currently have a leak in my car, but seal leaks are inevitable so I may end up the same boat as you guys. That being the case, I have a press and access to a lathe and other tools needed to play with this assembly, to see if I could figure out a way to rebuild this part. It's probably a long shot to ask, but if any of you guys have a used quill seal part and are willing to donate to the cause, I can give you my mailing info to send me the part. You'd have to be willing to accept the possibility the part will be ruined during experimentation, however I'm pretty confident I can get the bearing and seal out once removing the crimp with a lathe. Just have to find the right seal and bearing to put back in. More than 1 part would be ideal, but I could probably make due with one if I'm extra careful.

More importantly, if I were able to solve this puzzle with a relatively simple and affordable process, I'd be more than willing to rebuild them for people for the cost of shipping and parts, plus maybe a small fee for my time depending on how quickly they can be rebuilt after a process is established.

If anyone is willing/able to send me one or even a few quil seal assemblies, I'd love to tackle this conundrum. PM me if you're interested and I'll send you my info. Would love to give back to this community after all the help I've received.

[93twincam]

Originally Posted by bumpdraft

What I was suggesting was, select a larger quill roller-bearing assembly from a different vehicle that uses a larger quill roller-bearing assembly. Then, press a sleeve onto the Input Shaft of our Saturns so that the Input Shaft fits the larger quill roller-bearing. ...that’s all I’ve got. I have zero competence in the actual execution...

Is the output shaft OD an odd size? Is there no other trans output shaft, or other type shaft in the world utilizing the same size roller bearing and seal? I find it incredibly hard to believe Saturn would have designed a shaft that requires a completely unique bearing and seal size, rather than using a purchasable bearing and seal. I'm quite ignorant on this entire subject though, so please educate me!

[billr]

Go read from the beginning of this thread to find specific dimensions. I, too, thought it should be a relatively routine task to swap in some standard parts; but cgg17 provided dimensions that show it won't be a cheap task. It is a very tight fit in there, and they used a *******-size to accomplish it. I think I posted back then that a standard, thin-style 30mm bearing could fit, but would require a special bearing-hard and bearing-accurate sleeve be fit on the shaft.

I'm not saying it is an impossible challenge, only that cost is the big factor. How much are folks willing to pay? How many are willing to place a pre-order so that a production run of the parts can be made?

PS: $106 is still a really good price for that housing casting, but how often is a new casting alone damaged and need to be replaced?