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Old 10-14-2011, 09:22 AM   #21
alordofchaos
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Default Re: SL1 99 HARD SHIFT when its on

ShawnV did a nice write up with pictures a while back on replacing the hydraulics
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=146379

I believe it was his first time doing this job. I think it took maybe an hour or two? total for my first time with just hand tools (I actually did it twice; removed it from my SL2, removed it from my SC2, put the one in the SC2 into the SL2, put on a junkyard spare into the SC2

Since money is an issue, you may want to take a chance at the junkyard. That way, you get to practice removing it from a car before you do it on your own car.

For the clutch, Chris Thomas did a nice How To for Saturns, and Bernie did a great job of adding his own notes
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...ghlight=clutch
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=172571
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:31 AM   #22
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Default Re: SL1 99 HARD SHIFT when its on

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie View Post
Good post, thanks. I've not had a problem with my hydraulics so never seriously looked into bleeding them, particularly since some of the heavies in the membership feel it cannot be done well. It's nice to see that it can in fact be done successfully.
I think it's more that they don't recommend doing this for most people.

Low Saturn built up a nice turbo saturn race car and is happy to tell others how he did it, but he does not normally recommend to people to turbo their S series because for 99% of the people who ask about turbos, it is way over their knowledge, skills and budget
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:40 AM   #23
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Default Re: SL1 99 HARD SHIFT when its on

madpogue said
Quote:
Yes, this is exactly why the clutch isn't disengaging. Topping off the reservoir MIGHT get the clutch working again, but there's a good chance the effect would be temporary. The fluid doesn't just "go away". If it's as low as you say it is, there's probably a leak somewhere, and the new fluid will likely leak out as well. But for the time being, to get a better handle on what's going on, yes, top it off and re-try the clutch operation.
According to the richpin test, assuming it was done right and pedal travel is "normal", the clutch fork is moving .67 inches and that appears sufficient to disengage the clutch despite the obvious leak. By all indications he should brace himself for additional repairs beyond the hydraulics, namely replacing a worn clutch.


fdryer said
Quote:
That's way more than one drop of oil...............
Yes, sure it's not a single drop but my point was that a little goes a long way toward a big mess. It may be the lighting but it seems to me that there is a hint of red in the upper part of the oil stain on the second picture. Also, the leak appears to be fairly recent since there is very little gritty dirt on it, consistent with wash down from the slave cylinder leak.


Skydiveboy said
Quote:
And last question, is this kind of job only for an advaced user ?
After thinking about it more, my conclusion is that if you need to replace your clutch, it would be best for you to have it done. Unless you have someone there to help and advise you, it may be too much as a first project. One thing you can do for sure is repair the hydraulics.

In conclusion, try and follow suggestions and answer questions as completely as you can. It's very hard to be of any help and a waste of everybody's time when things are not being answered or have to be repeated.
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:35 PM   #24
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Default Re: SL1 99 HARD SHIFT when its on

Bernie, thanks for your help, I live in Buena park, Calif. near to knotts berry farm park (20 minutes from disneyland)
Unfortunately I don't have a garage but anyway I guess I may try to change the cylinders kit (yes, I will search for more tutorials)

I fdryer and alordofchaos, thanks for your great tips and comments a will check all those tutorials. I wil try the hydraulics first but yes it points that
there must be something else

Bernie, Thanks for you last comments I will follow them too

and I Really Do appreciate the time you guys are spending on helping me, God bless you guys !!

my email: skydivemail@yahoo.com
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:31 PM   #25
Bernie
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Default Re: SL1 99 HARD SHIFT when its on

Not having a garage is a serious drawback to doing mechanical work on your car. This is especially true when replacing a clutch, for example, because you need a convenient place to store various parts and assemblies as they are being removed from the car. This will not be much of an issue for you when replacing your hydraulics though, since there is so little to remove and temporarily store.

There are some special considerations when handling the assembly that you should be aware of, and I'm sure you'll read all about them. Just be sure NOT to press on the clutch pedal or master cylinder actuator while handling or installing the assembly or you will ruin it. That means, put a block under the clutch pedal to prevent it from moving while working on it. Also, keep the slave cylinder below the master cylinder so fluid cannot drain from the slave to the master.

Be sure to let us know how it goes. Don't be afraid to ask for advice, there's usually somebody online.

It's a bummer that you are out of work with a broken car, I feel for you.

Just so you know, you can contact members directly and privately without giving your email publically.
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Old 10-20-2011, 02:14 AM   #26
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Default Re: SL1 99 HARD SHIFT when its on

Ok, I was about to change the complete clutch hydraulics when a neighbor claimed to know about clutch issues and he promised to take a look to my whole system, I waited for 4 days but he did it, he noticed a very very small leaking out of the master cylinder (difficult to notice), anyway, he insisted too much that the slave looks good and that I only had to change the master cylinder (even when we have some discussions about the "impossible bleeding" of the air in this saturn SL1 system) he started to get angry because I was no believing him, so stupid me that I bougth it, I changed just the master in the way he told me and of course NOTHING, same problem !, after a lot of pump and try, pump and try, 15 minutes later the gears started to respond better so I drove the car for 5 minutes and gears feel kind of better (not perfect), he insisted that the air trapped eventually would come out and would stay below the cap (so I could open the cap and release the air and refill fluid level if need)

2 hours later I tried again and gears got back to the same problem again, I have been trying the rest of the day and NOTHING, same problem, I have been checking the fluid level (same), lot of pumping and nothing, so I guess I wasted a new master cylinder because I will have to buy the entire hydraulics assembly in the way I should have done it, It's absolutely a lesson for me

Once again my neighbor said that if I keep the clutch pedal all the way down and keep it pushed during all night (using a tube) it would help the fluid pressure to release the air trapped (I don't believe it)

Last edited by skydiveboy; 10-20-2011 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 10-20-2011, 09:48 AM   #27
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Default Re: SL1 99 HARD SHIFT when its on

You more than likely have a leak at the slave that is allowing air to be drawn into the system when the pedal is released.
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:07 AM   #28
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Default Re: SL1 99 HARD SHIFT when its on

Gotta ask - was the stand-alone master THAT much cheaper than a complete system?
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:53 PM   #29
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Default Re: SL1 99 HARD SHIFT when its on

johnny95sl2, Yes maybe some air is still getting into ( ??? ), actually when we see the little leak in the original master it was in a clear way that it was the point where air was getting in (wear on the rubbers from drivers side),

but I'm confused, this morning I try again just once and gears feel kind of better again (not good enough), and if I pump 2 or 3 times before enter a gear the gear enters perfectly smooth, so I need more pressure

The new master cyilinder cost $ 53, and the complete assembly costs exactly the double $ 106, in that moment my weakness was not the price, was that my neighbor insisted energetically that I should not buy the complete kit but only the master and when I mentioned again the air problem when buying just one part he started to get angry because I was challenging his instruction and he insisted that it would work

now I guess if I or we change the slave cylinder the fluid pressure could be still weak or maybe worse, I guess I should better try to find a way to burp the air trapped somehow
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Old 11-13-2011, 10:40 PM   #30
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Default Re: SL1 99 HARD SHIFT when its on

Hi again, in case someone can read me
My update, I changed the complete clutch master/slave hydraulics assembly some days ago and the first 2 days the change of gears worked amazing, but the third day started again to be difficult to change gears (all of them but most of it the first gear) there is no visible leak, anyone has any idea if the problem maybe the "fork", or the "Clutch Release Bearing" (I have no idea what they are), this became a nightmare

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...er=281047_0_0_

Thanks again
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Old 11-14-2011, 10:17 AM   #31
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Default Re: SL1 99 HARD SHIFT when its on

Well I'm sorry you're having trouble after all this. You should know that the aftermarket clutch hydraulic assembly is not known to hold up real well so there is the chance that it failed. What you need to do now is the Richpin test that was recommended in posts above, to see if the fork is being operated within design limits. You'll find the richpin video in the How-to Library or google it.

The rod that operates the fork may not have been properly placed during installation and may not be in its notch. The throwout bearing, unless extremely worn, is not likely to be your current problem.

Also, keep in mind that an apparently working system at one temperature might not work well at an other. Depending on where you live, temperatures may have plummeted during this period, revealing a problem that might otherwise have been masked. Usually, hard shifting due to clutch wear is more prevalent when the outside temperature is high.
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Old 11-14-2011, 10:49 PM   #32
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Default Re: SL1 99 HARD SHIFT when its on

Thank you again Bernie, the hydraulic assembly must be good, it would be impossible having too bad luck, must be something else, but the word thing is why any change in the cylinders have made the clutch release working good the first days, first the master cylinder change and after a purge was working ok then fail again, now this complete assembly and same thing happened
Anyway i'll do the wire test again

and if the fork its somehow out of position is there anyway to correct that ?
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Old 11-15-2011, 12:15 AM   #33
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Default Re: SL1 99 HARD SHIFT when its on

If you suspect that the rod is out of position, based on the result of the fork travel and pedal test, you'll have to pull the slave cylinder back out. However, when you go to put it back in, the rod will be more difficult to install because the retaining clips which hold it in place in the slave cylinder will have broken. They are one time use, but if you are careful you can re-install without them. Be sure to always keep the slave cylinder below that of the master cylinder to prevent air from getting into the system.

I've also read on this forum that on some Saturns the bulkhead or firewall, where the master cylinder is mounted, flexes when the clutch pedal is depressed. If that is the case, you'll need to reinforce it.
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