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Old 08-05-2022, 06:36 PM   #1
jimmcdaniels
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Default 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

Hi,

My pristine & stock automatic 1998 Saturn 1.9 DOHC SC2, 130K miles now has
Only DTC
P171(Fuel trim System Lean) and it seems to crank a bit more than it should before starting.

When I clear the code with a scanner, I get the code again within a few days of driving.
-
Before this, I replaced the Front O2 sensor with a Denso w/oem connector because I was getting codes
P171(Fuel trim System Lean).
AND
P131(O2S circuit low voltage sensor 1)
P137(Fuel trim system lean)
P1133(O2S Insufficient switching sensor 1).

-

I've read that P171 can be caused by any vacuum leak, commonly at the intake manifold gasket-needing replacement.

But I haven't found any obvious hose leak.
With the engine idling, I did spray starter fluid on vacuum hoses and around the intake area. But no change in idle was noticed.

I suppose the next logical thing I need to do is replace the intake manifold gasket and then clear the P171 and see if it comes back.

My scanner did not have a freeze frame accompanying the P171.
But I did take some screen shots of live data at idle, after I came home from driving around, shown below.

I am still new at interpreting scanner data into something investigative.

Any suggestions?

Thank-you
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Old 08-06-2022, 05:28 PM   #2
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

If you sprayed solvent or water around the intake manifold, throttle body gasket, egr valve gasket and all vacuum lines with engine idling without any increase or decrease in idle rpm, don't replace the intake manifold gasket on a whim. There is no logic to this.


Being a new member with an original stock S-series car, remove and examine the engine coolant temperature sensor and its two wire connector for corrosion damage. The original round nosed one is resin and prone to cracking, leaking antifreeze out and into the tiny connector, fouling it. Most failures with the coolant sensor runs the engine rich all the time but a few fail by running the engine lean. The flat nosed brass sensor cures this problem permanently but if the connector is fouled, cleaning won't fix it as it will have to be replaced. The sensor is below the egr valve. If sensor was replaced and connector is fine, move on to other troubleshooting.
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Old 08-09-2022, 11:33 PM   #3
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

That ECT sensor is easy to check/change, so do it; but the ECT shown in live-data is 199F. I doubt the ECT is the problem.

Check for vacuum leaking in the PCV system and the power-brake system. The only sure way to do this is to disconnect those and plug the port(s) right at the manifold and see if that changes symptoms. How about those little plastic hoses on top of the TB, did you spray around there, too?

Check the IAT against ECT and ambient when the engine is cold. Check fuel pressure.

If you do go after the manifold gasket, that would be a good time to check the injectors for rate and pattern.
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Old 08-11-2022, 09:50 PM   #4
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

[/ATTACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
If you sprayed solvent or water around the intake manifold, throttle body gasket, egr valve gasket and all vacuum lines with engine idling without any increase or decrease in idle rpm, don't replace the intake manifold gasket on a whim. There is no logic to this.


Being a new member with an original stock S-series car, remove and examine the engine coolant temperature sensor and its two wire connector for corrosion damage. The original round nosed one is resin and prone to cracking, leaking antifreeze out and into the tiny connector, fouling it. Most failures with the coolant sensor runs the engine rich all the time but a few fail by running the engine lean. The flat nosed brass sensor cures this problem permanently but if the connector is fouled, cleaning won't fix it as it will have to be replaced. The sensor is below the egr valve. If sensor was replaced and connector is fine, move on to other troubleshooting.
Thank you very very much for your reply and knowledge help!
Ok, I've resprayed and more all the things/thoroughly.

I think I may, perhaps if I'm luck, have found the problem, the PVC valve. I'll know in a few days of driving and update here.

Because I also pulled out the pvc valve end from the valve cover and sprayed into it with carb/intake cleaner spray with the engine running.
When I first pulled it out with the engine running, it appeared/sounded like it wasn't working very well, placing my finger over it. After I sprayed it, I noticed a great improvement in it's ball action like it was getting stuck before from traveling completely inside. Now the metal ball thud is cleaner and more pronounced. The other day the check engine light had gone off and then later back on so it seems to be intermittent and a partially clogged pvc valve perhaps fits that description. But I'm also wishful thinking here lol.
Then I thought I shouldn't have done that with the map at the far end of the intake manifold...

I inspected all the hoses and sprayed the brake booster hose, around the exhaust gas recirc mount gasket. I don't see the evap hose/not sure which it is.
I also left the engine off and came back 5 min later and applied the brake and found there was about 4 full brake pedal vacuum power action left in the booster so it doesn't seem its diaphragm has an leak.

I noticed the molded 90 degree necks blow-back hose, that goes from the air intake to the valve cover is getting cracks and oily on the bottom side so I will try to order and replace that.

I also used my scanner live data again with the engine off and cold. The temps of the air intake temp sensor and the ect seem the same.

I see in my notes, when I bought the car(98K miles), I did replace the PVC valve and sprayed map and throttle body throat.
Then shortly after the engine Coolant Temp sensor and I'm pretty sure the new one was the brass replacement(I believe mine failed with the temp always too low-rich). I also then replaced the fuel pump and regulator. I believe I was having similar problems at that time and the fuel pressure was a bit low/marginal when I rented a tester from auto zone.
Current miles is actually 122K now.

I did disconnect the ect plug carefully using pliers to squeeze the release(my hands aren't strong enough). The 2 female's look good, no green corrosion.

I did order an intake gasket before I saw the responses. I didn't get a notice so I thought there were no responses. I'll keep the gasket for future use. I don't look forward to installing it if it's still good.
I also ordered a valve cover and plugs seals felco kit because they are leaking, oil in the center plug wires galley. The previous owner had just had those replaced just before I bought it, not sure why it didn't last. I'll also apply rtv o2 safe sealant on the new gasket and use an inch pounds torque wrench to not over tighten when I do.

Pics at bottom.

Please let me know if I overlooked anything you said to investigate.

IMG_2363.jpg

IMG_2362.jpg

IMG_2365.jpg
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Old 08-11-2022, 09:56 PM   #5
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
That ECT sensor is easy to check/change, so do it; but the ECT shown in live-data is 199F. I doubt the ECT is the problem.

Check for vacuum leaking in the PCV system and the power-brake system. The only sure way to do this is to disconnect those and plug the port(s) right at the manifold and see if that changes symptoms. How about those little plastic hoses on top of the TB, did you spray around there, too?

Check the IAT against ECT and ambient when the engine is cold. Check fuel pressure.

If you do go after the manifold gasket, that would be a good time to check the injectors for rate and pattern.
Thank you very very much for the very knowledgeable reply!

I believe I did everything you suggested except I did not check the fuel pressure because I replaced the pump about 24K miles ago and I'd have to rent a tester from auto zone and I'm waiting to see if cleaning the PVC might have been the problem. Otherwise I will.
I also didn't unplugging and block the pvc and brake booster because I don't know how I would drive like that and I did spray around them well and also checked the booster diaphragm for reserve leak down passed.

See what I did in the previous reply.
Let me know if you have any suggestions.

I'll update after a week or less. I don't drive the Saturn everyday even though it's my favorite.
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Old 08-12-2022, 02:45 PM   #6
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

billr hinted at it, but "and it seems to crank a bit more than it should before starting" stood out to me. The fuel pressure regulator for your car is in your fuel filter. I would be willing to bet there may be an issue there. Unfortunately you cannot get any of the proven aftermarket fuel filters any more. The cheaper ones had issues with properly controlling fuel pressure. Your best bet right now is a Hastings/Baldwin filter.

My wife's old '00 SL1 always cranked a little longer than it should have on startup after changing the fuel filter. After a while I finally installed a Wix and it started up immediately after that.

I would check fuel pressure and make sure it is in spec.
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Old 08-12-2022, 09:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

Checking the fuel pressure would be a good idea due to the integrated pressure regulator setup.
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Old 08-13-2022, 01:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinVarnes View Post
billr hinted at it, but "and it seems to crank a bit more than it should before starting" stood out to me. The fuel pressure regulator for your car is in your fuel filter. I would be willing to bet there may be an issue there. Unfortunately you cannot get any of the proven aftermarket fuel filters any more. The cheaper ones had issues with properly controlling fuel pressure. Your best bet right now is a Hastings/Baldwin filter.

My wife's old '00 SL1 always cranked a little longer than it should have on startup after changing the fuel filter. After a while I finally installed a Wix and it started up immediately after that.

I would check fuel pressure and make sure it is in spec.
Ok that's very cool to know. I do show I replaced the filter/regulator in 2017 when shortly after I bought the car. I don't know what brand it was though.

I see rock auto seems to be the only source for that brand filter. I also see a Fuel Filter Purolator F65501 on eBay with some good reviews for half the price. but I won't risk it.

That will be the next thing I look at. I'm going to finally drive the car today.

Thank you again very much
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Old 08-14-2022, 03:26 PM   #9
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

FUEL PRESSURE UPDATE:

Ok my wishful thinking that the PCV valve cleaning would fix the problem didn't. DTC 171 came right back.

*TESTED PRESSURE IT'S 29 PSI AT IDLE (should be 45-51 per an old thread).
Ref. http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=232415

(Rented a free fuel pressure test kit from Autozone.
Their gauge with attached hose fit right onto the car's test port without needing any of the adapters however it wouldn't depress enough, the Schrader valve to get a reading.
So I had to temporarily remove the Schrader while testing, using an AC Schrader screw valve remover tool. Gauge hose's connector cross threads easily when starting to screw onto the test port-had to watch for that.)

*Engine cold.
When I turn the key on, the gauge jumps to 29 then drops to 5 psi(this drop might seem to indicate the regulator is the problem....).

At idle, it's 29 PSI, when I rev the throttle, it stays the same...
Per an old thread, this more likely may indicate that the fuel pump is the problem, not the regulator-filter.....
Also that Carter brand is the only Fuel Pump assembly recommended.
Ref. http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=232415

*REPLACEMENTS PERFORMED IN 2017 98K MILES:
I believe I was having the same problem when I first bought the car and my records show I replaced both the filter-regulator and pump. But I don't show which brands I used. I'm fairly certain the pump was a direct fit type.
Although I know I did some reading then and may very well have gotten the recommended brands.
It seems the problem never really went away afterwards, just got slightly better and ignored.

*FILTER-REG. SHOPPING NOW:
I know the $58(w/shipping) Hastings/Baldwin filter has been recommended because the OEM quality Wix is no longer available.
However in an older post indicates the actual maker of the Wix did rebrand it for different retailers and that PTC PGF846 is one of the direct Wix equivalents.
Also that the filter bracket plastic fingers can be bent for replacement instead of risk breaking off the 10mm rusted on bolts.

Ref. https://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sh....php?p=2371622

I found the PTC PGF846 on Amazon for $24 with very good reviews but some complaints:

Ref. https://www.amazon.com/Power-Train-C...998+Saturn+SC2


*PUMP SHOPPING NOW:
I see Rockauto has a Carter fuel pump for $30 and a Carter pump w/ housing assembly for $113(although they show the $96 Spectra Premium as preferred).
Ref. https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...fuel+pump,6256

CONCLUSION:
I'm just a shade tree mechanic for me and friends.
*I suppose I should replace the filter-reg with the PTC one on amazon and then recheck the pressure and if not in spec, replace the pump with the $30 Carter pump?

Q's:

*Does that sound right or am I missing something here?

*Do the sender fuel level units often go out therefore making just the pump replacement a bad choice?

*I don't remember if the tank has to be dropped for the pump replacement or if there's an access plate under the back seat/trunk area.?

Thank you very much

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Old 08-14-2022, 04:08 PM   #10
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

You could disconnect/remove the fuel filter/reg and connect the gauge directly to the line from the pump; testing the pump without any effects from the filter/reg. Use hose and clamps to make temporary connection of the gauge, but be aware pressure will get up towards 100 psi if the pump is OK.
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Old 08-15-2022, 12:41 AM   #11
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

The tank does has to be dropped for fuel pump replacement.
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Old 08-15-2022, 01:17 AM   #12
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

That's a great suggestion but when I look at the tester kit, none of the attachments look like they would connect well enough to test at a disconnected fuel line.

I guess I'll order the filter-reg and install it and then recheck the pressure from the test port again.

I'll update then.
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Old 08-15-2022, 01:18 AM   #13
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

Thank you for that info if it comes to needing that.
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Old 08-18-2022, 09:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

Dropping the tank is not too bad, just try to empty it as much as you can before dropping it.

I have done it multiple times with a singular floor jack, two jack stands, and some basic hand tools.
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Old 08-22-2022, 12:52 PM   #15
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

UPDATE: FUEL FILTER REPLACED, LOW PRESSURE SOLVED-pressure seems a bit high now, pics included. I have to drive it to see if any more codes come.
BUT one quick connector now drips-need to replace its O rings:

I'm glad I went with the Amazon filter
PTC PGF846 for $24
https://www.amazon.com/Power-Train-C...998+Saturn+SC2

The old filter didn't have the regulator adj from factory side black plug and didn't have as long of tubes AND its front tube didn't have the long second neck hump for the plastic hanger.
I used a hammer to tap out the old filter from the plastic cage. It was stubborn and crushed the metal some.
The new filter has to fit in with the black plug in the correct cage pocket. I lightly bearing greased the filter housing and pipes which made everything slide and snap in much easier.
My 10mm bolts came out so I didn't have to leave the plastic cage mounted.
There's a back multi hoses frame clip retainer I could have disconnected to make it even more easy.
While the filter was out, the one rear supply hose kept dripping gas a fair amount and I caught it in a peanut butter jar and used a funnel to put it back into the gas tank. I should have found something to plug the hose but instead let it drip.

With ignition to start, the pressure now reads 42psi and with the engine running 56psi.
It's been stated it should be between 45-51, so I hope I don't get a P172 DTC now!

BUT now the lower rear quick connect hose has a drip(it has signs of a slight gas stain on the old filter) so I'm going to try to replace its 2 inner O rings to fix with some new AC rings collection I have.

Thank-you for all the wonderful help!
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Old 08-27-2022, 11:47 PM   #16
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

Fixed, engine running peppier from a dead stop. No trouble codes so far.

Also fixed filter's dripping/leaking nylon connector:

My 3/8" nylon straight connector to the fuel filter on my 98 saturn sc2 was leaking when running, it appeared the O-rings were bad.
I bought Dorman 3/8" replacement connectors 2 pack from auto zone part 800-082. Smaller connectors are 5/16"
I used tweezers and a pic and small screw driver to remove new o rings from one of the new connectors replace the 2 o rings and it still leaked so it must have had a hairline crack or other defect.
So I was able to remove the old connector and put on a new connector and fix the problem without cutting. It was tricky. Wearing gloves, I used a heat gun to carefully warm, but not too much, the barb tube area but the old connector would not pull out.
So I used a drill bit thinking maybe I could drill out the barb area through the throat of the connector and then collapse the thinned barb.
I used progressively larger drill bits and found the connector would often spin with the bit. So I was able to warm the tube barb area and then spin and pull on my battery drill and got the connector barbs to release.
I applied oil to the new connector barbs and got it in half way and then all the way once I heated the tube again, working around it no more than 10 seconds on low setting. The new barbs were almost a perfect match for the old barbs.
No leaks.
Take care
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Old 08-29-2022, 05:08 PM   #17
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Default Re: 98 SC2 P171-Fuel trim System Lean, help fix Please!

update: the new nylon connector started dripping from the nylon hose insertion.
I added a very small worm hose clamp stopped it.
Some replacement connectors come with a clamp to be sure, this one didn't.
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