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Old 07-23-2012, 02:58 PM   #1
Baron5867
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Default Rear brake line went while I was driving...

I was driving, and as I was applying my brakes, I lost most of my braking power. I managed to get the car to a safe place, and found that the brake line to the RR wheel was leaking and very corroded. Apparently, it just failed. The odd thing (to me) was that the brake line was only corroded as it was routed from the left side of the car, over the axle/support thing, in the middle of the car. Is this normal? I am guessing this is an area that gets splashed from the rear wheels.

I think I can handle the repair. I have a tube cutter somewhere, and will rent a flaring tool from a FLAPS. Is this a 3/16 line, with M12 fittings?

System will have to be bled. I will do a search when I have time, I think I remember that someone posted a procedure for bleeding without a scan tool. Does it matter that my ABS is non-functional? Thanks.
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:03 PM   #2
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Default Re: Rear brake line went while I was driving...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron5867 View Post
I was driving, and as I was applying my brakes, I lost most of my braking power. I managed to get the car to a safe place, and found that the brake line to the RR wheel was leaking and very corroded. Apparently, it just failed. The odd thing (to me) was that the brake line was only corroded as it was routed from the left side of the car, over the axle/support thing, in the middle of the car. Is this normal? I am guessing this is an area that gets splashed from the rear wheels.

I think I can handle the repair. I have a tube cutter somewhere, and will rent a flaring tool from a FLAPS. Is this a 3/16 line, with M12 fittings?

System will have to be bled. I will do a search when I have time, I think I remember that someone posted a procedure for bleeding without a scan tool. Does it matter that my ABS is non-functional? Thanks.
Very scary.

Can't help.

Here's hoping someone has useful information.
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Old 07-30-2012, 11:24 AM   #3
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Default Re: Rear brake line went while I was driving...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron5867 View Post
System will have to be bled. I will do a search when I have time, I think I remember that someone posted a procedure for bleeding without a scan tool. Does it matter that my ABS is non-functional? Thanks.
Feedback would be appreciated.... if the ABS system is non-functional, and has been for some time, is it necessary to to even worry about that system as far as bleeding? Sounds to be good to be true, but if true, it would work out. Thanks.
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Old 07-30-2012, 12:09 PM   #4
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Default Re: Rear brake line went while I was driving...

Think that's scary? Try having the rubber line blow out at 40mph trying to slow down for a driveway. Was so happy I had done a 5spd swap ~6months before hand and had a properly working parking brake...got it slowed enough to make the next driveway and scrub off the last of the speed in the dirt.
Where it blew for me was the rubber line between the rear crossmember and the rear caliper, nice & easy to replace (cheap too, think the line was only ~$15 but don't quote me...) and I was done ~3hrs later. '93 SL2 w/ABS that worked to spec, didn't have a problem bleeding.

You should cut out the bad line you can see, measure it to find out how much new line you need and try to keep it intact to bend the new line to spec. Brake line is fairly picky about how close to perfect cutting & flaring is done, a tiny bit off is okay but more then a tiny bit and you're probably going to have a leak.
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Old 07-30-2012, 01:32 PM   #5
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Default Re: Rear brake line went while I was driving...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
Think that's scary? Try having the rubber line blow out at 40mph trying to slow down for a driveway. Was so happy I had done a 5spd swap ~6months before hand and had a properly working parking brake...got it slowed enough to make the next driveway and scrub off the last of the speed in the dirt.
Where it blew for me was the rubber line between the rear crossmember and the rear caliper, nice & easy to replace (cheap too, think the line was only ~$15 but don't quote me...) and I was done ~3hrs later. '93 SL2 w/ABS that worked to spec, didn't have a problem bleeding.

You should cut out the bad line you can see, measure it to find out how much new line you need and try to keep it intact to bend the new line to spec. Brake line is fairly picky about how close to perfect cutting & flaring is done, a tiny bit off is okay but more then a tiny bit and you're probably going to have a leak.
Will reply in full later.

Replacement line is hooked up. I am just going to do the best bleed I can. At the very least, it should give me SOME braking power, so that I can get to the shop if necessary. I may ask back as I do this. Thanks.
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Old 07-30-2012, 03:02 PM   #6
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Default @#$%^& - help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron5867 View Post
Will reply in full later.

Replacement line is hooked up. I am just going to do the best bleed I can. At the very least, it should give me SOME braking power, so that I can get to the shop if necessary. I may ask back as I do this. Thanks.
Problem... RR caliper bleeder screw broke off, flush with caliper. How is this handled by the pros? And how to avoid on the other calipers? No mistake on my end that I know off... I cleaned the area off, hit with PB Blaster a few hours prior, and applied torque cleanly. From what I know of the car's history, it may well be possible that those bleeder screws haven't been touched since they left the factory.
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Old 07-30-2012, 04:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: @#$%^& - help!

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Originally Posted by Baron5867 View Post
How is this handled by the pros?
Have parts store deliver a loaded rebuilt caliper, charge customer mark-up on the loaded caliper + the core, pocket the core charge.

You might have good luck with an easy out, but you'll probably end up at least replacing the caliper. Never seen half a bleeder screw, it might be hollow enough to not need to drill a hole for the easy out.
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Old 07-30-2012, 04:51 PM   #8
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Default Re: @#$%^& - help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
Have parts store deliver a loaded rebuilt caliper, charge customer mark-up on the loaded caliper + the core, pocket the core charge.
If the repair facility breaks the screw, they contact the customer and advise them that the caliper(s) need to be replaced at the customer's expense? I may be wrong, but that doesn't sound right. My guess is that it is the shop's problem, but the shop knows how to usually avoid the broken screw, and knows how to fix it on the rare occasion it does occur. How they do this is what I would like to know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
You might have good luck with an easy out, but you'll probably end up at least replacing the caliper. Never seen half a bleeder screw, it might be hollow enough to not need to drill a hole for the easy out.
This is not an unusual problem, and it appears from a google search that the easy-out fails more often than it succeeds. New rear caliper will go at least $60 new, but maybe I'll get a JY part.

Ongoing....
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Old 07-30-2012, 05:25 PM   #9
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Default ANd it continues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron5867 View Post
Ongoing....
As stated, steel brake line to RR caliper has been repaired after rupture. Bleeder screw is broken (locked shut) on RR caliper. I disconnected the brake hose at the caliper so that I at least "prime" the repaired brake line. I put a drain pan under the dangling hose and went back in the car and pumped the brakes repeatedly. NO effect... it appears that there is no brake fluid being pushed to the RR wheel. Am i missing something? DO I have to bleed the MC or ABS module before I get fluid to flow to the open RR line? Is it possible that the (nonfunctioning, to my knowledge) ABS has blocked off flow to RR wheel? Am I paranoid, or is it possible that the one flare I made was overtightened and somehow squashed shut? I really don't want to disconnect that in order to check.

Getting annoyed...

EDIT: Disregard above. FLuid is flowing... my pumping of the brakes was probably just pushing an air bubble back and forth. Just needed to keep MC full and wait for gravity to work. Sorry!

This still doesn't fix my bleeder screw though.

Last edited by Baron5867; 07-30-2012 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 07-30-2012, 10:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: Rear brake line went while I was driving...

Check out this Video for the Professional way to remove Brake Bleeder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMVV51gyoPU

Please give me some reputation.

Last edited by SalemCat; 07-30-2012 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 07-31-2012, 07:08 AM   #11
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Default Re: Rear brake line went while I was driving...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SalemCat View Post
Check out this Video for the Professional way to remove Brake Bleeder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMVV51gyoPU
I saw that during an internet search. Richpin was never happier.

I figured that the pros MAY also use heat, but off the top of my head, I would think that there is a danger to seals, the fluid, and any aluminum.
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Old 08-01-2012, 10:56 AM   #12
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Default Re: Rear brake line went while I was driving...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
Think that's scary? Try having the rubber line blow out at 40mph trying to slow down for a driveway. Was so happy I had done a 5spd swap ~6months before hand and had a properly working parking brake...got it slowed enough to make the next driveway and scrub off the last of the speed in the dirt.
I think I have that beat. I was approaching a red light at probably 35 mph at a 3-way intersection in city (Philadelphia) driving, and some idiot inexplicably decided to change lanes and cut in front of me. I braked sharply, and started to brake, and then the pedal went to the floor . I instantly brought my foot back up and stomped the pedal. My wheels locked momentarily (my ABS is inactive), and this slowed me quite a bit, but then the pedal started going to the floor again. Because there was no oncoming traffic due to the red light, I decided to steer my way out of it, and drove over the double lines and onto the opposite side of the road, toward the intersection. . Instantly looking up the cross street (which had the green light), i realized there was no traffic there, so I just made a left turn through the red light, and quickly brought the car to a stop with the residual braking power and the emergency brake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
Where it blew for me was the rubber line between the rear crossmember and the rear caliper, nice & easy to replace (cheap too, think the line was only ~$15 but don't quote me...)
Was the hose bulged or obviously deteriorated? I am not sure if brake hoses can rot from the inside out.

As mentioned, my brake line was clearly corroded, but only the portion across the cross member, so it was kind of hidden. Below is a picture taken from the right side.

Brake1.jpg

You can see that the brake line is fine until it runs past the hanger clip, and then things go all to hell as the brake line goes up and over toward the center of the car. I have changed the rear pads twice, and never saw any indication of line rot from that angle. I don't know whether the state inspection guy missed it, or saw but ignored it because there was no leaking.

Lesson: check this area on your S-series, especially if you are in the rust belt! As it is, I am going to check the brake line to the RF wheel, to make sure there isn't a similar situation up front. Getting stranded with a bad starter, CPS, etc. is a major hassle, but sudden loss of braking power in traffic is very much less than ideal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
93 SL2 w/ABS that worked to spec, didn't have a problem bleeding.
Did you bleed the MC and or ABS module? If so, quick comment would be appreciated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
You should cut out the bad line you can see, measure it to find out how much new line you need and try to keep it intact to bend the new line to spec. Brake line is fairly picky about how close to perfect cutting & flaring is done, a tiny bit off is okay but more then a tiny bit and you're probably going to have a leak.
I cut the line on the left side of the car, and disconnected the line at the RR brake hose.

Brake line is 3/16", bubble flare, with M10 x 1.0 fittings. The FLAPS in my area carry AGS poly-armour brake line, fittings and unions.

Flaring is a bubble flare, and the FLAPS around here do not appear to rent out the necessary ISO metric bubble flaring kit , thus necessitating purchase of the appropriate kit (I think one can be had for $25-$30). HOwever, according to others, an acceptable approximation of a bubble flare can be made with the double-flaring kit commonly rentable at your FLAPS, by carefully doing only the first part of the double flaring process. Because I decided to only flare the existing brake line at the point where I cut it, and use a pre-flared 30" length of brake line to replace the part of the brake line that was removed, I decided to go with the pseudo-bubble-flare done with the double flaring kit.

NOtes on flaring:

1) Practice on a piece of old/spare brake line before you go to flare the existing line on the car!

2) If you flare new brake line, strip away the plastic coating on the end of the new brake line when flaring, so that the flaring kit threads bite into the metal and hold.

Below are some pictures of the (hopefully) finished line repair. No leaking seen, but the system is currently unbled.

Brake2.jpgBrake3.jpg
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Old 08-01-2012, 11:20 AM   #13
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Default Re: Rear brake line went while I was driving...

All I bled was the RL caliper, didn't do anything else other then making sure the MC was full and stayed full. Guess you do have me beat on the scary brake line blowing out thing, I didn't need to pump the pedal to get it slowed down so the MC & ABS module must not have gotten air into them, brakes felt fine afterward.
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Old 08-01-2012, 11:21 AM   #14
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Default Re: @#$%^& - help!

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Originally Posted by Baron5867 View Post
Problem... RR caliper bleeder screw broke off, flush with caliper.
Screw did not break off quite flush with the caliper... it broke off with a flange, sticks up about 1/8" above the caliper surface.

Brake4.jpg
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Old 08-01-2012, 11:25 AM   #15
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Default Re: Rear brake line went while I was driving...

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Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
I didn't need to pump the pedal to get it slowed down so the MC & ABS module must not have gotten air into them, brakes felt fine afterward.
You didn't need to pump the brakes because the ABS likely did it for you. Maybe if my ABS had been working, things might not have been so..... dramatic.
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Old 08-01-2012, 11:40 AM   #16
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Default Re: Rear brake line went while I was driving...

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I figured that the pros MAY also use heat, but off the top of my head, I would think that there is a danger to seals, the fluid, and any aluminum.
Several videos showing heat (and rapid cooling) to assist bleeder screw removal. I was thinking of giving it a shot when I get back to the car.

Does anyone know if this torch would be appropriate for this task, and for automotive bolt removal in general?

Also, anyone familiar with AUtozone Duralast calipers and hoses? Thanks.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:19 AM   #17
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Default Follow up....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron5867 View Post
Several videos showing heat (and rapid cooling) to assist bleeder screw removal. I was thinking of giving it a shot when I get back to the car.

Does anyone know if this torch would be appropriate for this task, and for automotive bolt removal in general?

Also, anyone familiar with AUtozone Duralast calipers and hoses? Thanks.
Follow up with this...

1) Removing the broken OEM (I think) bleeder screw was impossible for me. Heating/Cooling, use of left-handed drill bits, etc. did not work. The material (silverish... aluminum? ) is too soft and had become one with the caliper. The only possible option apparent (and available) to me would be to drill the screw out entirely, and then some, and then tap and install a bleeder screw the next size up. OF course, even if I did that work, and managed to do it correctly, I would then have an OEM caliper with 170k miles on it, and metal shavings in it. Best (and probably only) way to go is a new caliper.

2) Autozone Duralast caliper seemed to be of good quality. It was professionally finished and shrink-wrapped within the box. It included new caliper bolts and boots, brake pad clips, and 2 new copper(?) washers for the brake hose connection. The bleeder screw on the caliper appears to be BRASS.

3) My brake bleeding experience fortunately resembled fetchitfido's. Despite the fact that the brake line had ruptured and drained dry, and sat open for a few days, I was still able to restore the brake system to service by simply bleeding that particular line at the (new) RR caliper. And it was an easy bleed there.

Not having to have a shop bleed the brakes made up for having to purchase a new rear caliper ($60) over a broken bleeder screw.

4) The "pseudo-bubble-flare" (see previous) appears to work, I have no leaks.
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:33 AM   #18
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Default Re: Rear brake line went while I was driving...

My line blew in the same place two weekends ago as I was approaching a stop sign. Downshifting and using my parking brake slowed me down. I replaced that section of line the following Monday (thankfully my bleeder screw was cooperative) and everything's great again.
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Old 01-31-2015, 03:04 PM   #19
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Default Re: Follow up....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron5867 View Post
2) Autozone Duralast caliper seemed to be of good quality. It was professionally finished and shrink-wrapped within the box. It included new caliper bolts and boots, brake pad clips, and 2 new copper(?) washers for the brake hose connection. The bleeder screw on the caliper appears to be BRASS.
Follow up... the Autozone Duralast caliper started leaking at the piston, after 29 months. The other three calipers on the car are original (1994, 190k). As stated above, this Duralast caliper replaced an original caliper with 170k miles on it not because the caliper failed, but because I broke off the bleeder screw and couldn't get it out.

This might be the rare failure, but I am not happy. I have not had any problems with other Duralast products.
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Old 01-31-2015, 08:50 PM   #20
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Default Re: @#$%^& - help!

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If the repair facility breaks the screw, they contact the customer and advise them that the caliper(s) need to be replaced at the customer's expense? I may be wrong, but that doesn't sound right. My guess is that it is the shop's problem, but the shop knows how to usually avoid the broken screw, and knows how to fix it on the rare occasion it does occur. How they do this is what I would like to know.

Ongoing....
How they do it (I've been there 100's of times) is they inform the customer that if the bleeder breaks, the caliper(or wheel cylinder in the majority of cases) must be replaced. The Customer can then decide if they want to proceed with the repair, understanding that rust happens, and the shop can't be held responsible for it. In thousands of brake jobs, I've NEVER removed a broken bleeder from a caliper or wheel cylinder. It isn't worth the time or trouble.
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