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Old 08-11-2021, 11:08 PM   #741
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Edited the three snapshots. The white arrow points to the farthest point of the cam from the bolt, closest point from the bolt. Mark those points on the two (new?) idlers. Your first one is marked incorrectly. The second one is correctly marked. The drawing is edited to show the same reference to the farthest point of the cam from the bolt on both idler pulleys.
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Old 08-12-2021, 03:31 PM   #742
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

fdryer,

Thank you for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Edited the three snapshots. The white arrow points to the farthest point of the cam from the bolt, closest point from the bolt. Mark those points on the two (new?) idlers. Your first one is marked incorrectly. The second one is correctly marked. The drawing is edited to show the same reference to the farthest point of the cam from the bolt on both idler pulleys.
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Old 08-12-2021, 07:45 PM   #743
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Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

How does the marks look so far dialed into FSM 10 o-clock (upper idler) & 11 o-clock (lower idler); I may have the camera angled to look more toward 12 on lower.

Tensioner looks perfect to FSM and the belt is on very nicely with no cam locks.

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Old 08-12-2021, 07:46 PM   #744
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Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

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Old 08-12-2021, 08:29 PM   #745
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Upper 10 o' clock ok, spring tensioner ok but bottom idler looks more like 12 o' clock than 11.
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Old 08-12-2021, 08:57 PM   #746
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Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

fdryer,

Thank you for double checking my work. I went back down to double check and took two new pics. This time it appears 11 on lower idler is correct. I think the close up angle of the camera might have caused it to appear more toward 12.

Let me know if you believe this is correct at approx. 11

Thank you, again.

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Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Upper 10 o' clock ok, spring tensioner ok but bottom idler looks more like 12 o' clock than 11.
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Old 08-12-2021, 09:09 PM   #747
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Well, maybe more like 11:30. Neither 11 nor 12. This may be a very minor discrepancy and fine on the overall timing procedure avoiding the belt walking back towards the rear timing cover and camshafts wandering out of time every two revolutions of crankshaft rotation.
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Old 08-12-2021, 09:57 PM   #748
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Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

fdryer,

Should I dial it more toward 11 or proceed with a spin and see if tracking occurs?

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Well, maybe more like 11:30. Neither 11 nor 12. This may be a very minor discrepancy and fine on the overall timing procedure avoiding the belt walking back towards the rear timing cover and camshafts wandering out of time every two revolutions of crankshaft rotation.
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Old 08-12-2021, 10:03 PM   #749
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Go ahead and turn the engine over by hand. The very slight difference will not affect timing greatly and not damage anything as this is very much timed by the book. From repeating timing procedures and learning pitfalls each time, your steep learning curve is plateauing where you're more aware than you were when you first started.
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Old 08-12-2021, 11:16 PM   #750
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Attention Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

fdryer,

I went ahead and performed the first pass.

Positives on this go:

~ The tightest belt so far; it was harder to move it. I believe this is a positive.

Negative on this go:

~ Tracking occurred again. However, I noted exactly when it happened and what I noticed.

Pic #6 & Pic #8 show where I believe something is off. Pic #6 shows the tensioner line *above* where I originally set it per FSM.

Pic #8 shows the tensioner returned back to the exact line that I set it per FSM. It also appears that the differential is the exact amount of tracking that can be seen on Pic #10

Here are Pics #1-5:

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Go ahead and turn the engine over by hand. The very slight difference will not affect timing greatly and not damage anything as this is very much timed by the book. From repeating timing procedures and learning pitfalls each time, your steep learning curve is plateauing where you're more aware than you were when you first started.
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Old 08-12-2021, 11:17 PM   #751
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Attention Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Here are Pics #6-10:
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Old 08-12-2021, 11:23 PM   #752
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Attention Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Here are Pics #11-13:

I am not sure what to think on this matter.

Consider this,

a) The tensioner *if* it were set to the middle line, rather than the top of the bar as step 6 states in the FSM; would tracking have occurred?

b) Since the tensioner went back to the mark that the FSM stated to after it went higher than set, what does that tell us?

c) Now that pass #1 is finished, proceeding with FSM instructions to Pass #2 is the best option?

d) Reset and set the tensioner lower in hopes it doesn't over set itself mid pass #1 cranking before coming to a TDC close?

e) Why would this *only* be happening to me? How could the FSM be wrong? The parts have been continually changed.

Lots to think on for me. Let me know what you think when you are able. Have a great evening.
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Old 08-12-2021, 11:29 PM   #753
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

I'm not sure of what I'm seeing and one nagging question to ask.

Did you swap cam gears 1&2 in attempts to correct timing there?

Does timing look correct every two revolutions of crankshaft?
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Old 08-13-2021, 02:09 AM   #754
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Loosening the pretension on the tensioner will do one thing... the belt will fail to stay in it's seat (teeth). The belt tensioner will gyrate like crazy under normal operation so stop looking at it as the belt loads and unloads. I never saw a photo of TDC of the crank sprocket??? You keep starting the belt install in the wrong direction. Start at the crank sprocket and go around in the CCW direction. By always starting on BANK 1... you will always have too much slack at that point causing the belt to "track" badly. The Crank Sprocket is King and you treat it like a bad relative! Stop it!

Do you have the spark plugs installed?
If NO, there shouldn't be much resistance to rotating the engine. The compression is what causes the loading on unloading of the belt. With the plug out, all the hyper isolation of movement is junk science. You will never understand how this works with the spark plugs not installed. If you install the plugs and repeat your "method", you will immediately see the errors in your ways.

If YES, the amount of pressure to rotate the engine is enormous. If the belt is the slightest amount loose anywhere in the circuit, the belt will jump teeth when rotating it. But, this is how it is must and supposed to be configured to function for 100K miles.

Until you set the ilders and the belt tensioner as I recommended... you will continue to spin your wheels and experience the exact same errors over and over again!

The idlers must take up slack in the belt and apply the proper amount of tension. You are setting them at the initial starting point recommended by the manual. This is NOT the final positions. I repeat, This is NOT the final positions! Each idler must apply pressure and then the belt tensioner applies more tension. The belt will track true when these adjustments are correctly done. You barely have any tension on the belt... of course its going to track badly!

Three sets of timing components, a dozen belts and numerous attempts have ended the same way. I wonder why? Wake up! Do you want to finish this or just keep throwing parts at it?
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Old 08-13-2021, 02:21 PM   #755
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

fdryer,

I swapped cam gears 1 & 2 in attempt to correct tracking before I researched and found that video on youtube regarding engineering and over tensioning being primary reason for tracking.

And yes, the timing looks correct every two revolutions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
I'm not sure of what I'm seeing and one nagging question to ask.

Did you swap cam gears 1&2 in attempts to correct timing there?

Does timing look correct every two revolutions of crankshaft?
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Old 08-13-2021, 06:01 PM   #756
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

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.......And yes, the timing looks correct every two revolutions.
Does this mean you're running thru several/many crankshaft revolutions to verify timing is perfect before reassembling everything for startup?
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Old 08-13-2021, 06:59 PM   #757
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Information Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

fdryer,

I was answering your question. I only performed the 1st pass so far (2 x crankshaft rotations) which then was re-locked w/ kit locks. I haven't gone beyond the 1st pass due to the tracking.

Perhaps I should reset and attempt a successful 1st pass w/o tracking if reducing the tension on the spring loaded tensioner solves this.

I feel it would be moot to continue (2nd & 3rd FSM pass) without correcting the belt since tracking occured again.

The variables tested so far have been the idlers (settings), camshaft sprockets (swapped 1&2), new tensioner + idlers (upper & lower); just not a reset and lower than FSM instructed tension in hopes this solves the tracking (based on the video evidence and my failed 1st pass that I just shared and you helped with).

As always, Thanks!

~ Brandon

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Does this mean you're running thru several/many crankshaft revolutions to verify timing is perfect before reassembling everything for startup?
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Old 08-13-2021, 07:24 PM   #758
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

When the 1st pass showed timing in alignment, there's no need to lock camshafts. Just repeat for a 2nd pass and verify timing alignment. Locking camshafts is only necessary when replacing the timing belt. If minor alignment is needed to shift 1/2 or 3/4 camshafts, the crankshaft lock or wedge is used as this allows the belt to move slightly to realign 1/2 or 3/4 camshafts. I mention 1/2 and 3/4 as two separate pairs of timing alignments using only the cam alignment tool, not the camshaft locks.

When using camshaft locks, you're preventing the timing belt from exercising its elastic properties during minute adjustments of idler pulleys to refine two camshaft timing marks per pulley. Using the crankshaft lock or wedge locks the crankshaft from turning as one or both idler pulleys are slightly adjusted while allowing the belt to move. Inserting camshaft locks goes against procedures.
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Old 08-14-2021, 12:39 AM   #759
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

fdryer,

I understand this. I shouldn't have mentioned the cam locks as I only locked them after tracking occurred.

Timing looks good; the tracking does not. I will remove the belt and attempt a brand new 1st pass with tensioner set at the middle line with an experimental remedy.

I hope this works. Thanks again for always hearing me out on this procedure. I really met my match with this one.

~ Brandon

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
When the 1st pass showed timing in alignment, there's no need to lock camshafts. Just repeat for a 2nd pass and verify timing alignment. Locking camshafts is only necessary when replacing the timing belt. If minor alignment is needed to shift 1/2 or 3/4 camshafts, the crankshaft lock or wedge is used as this allows the belt to move slightly to realign 1/2 or 3/4 camshafts. I mention 1/2 and 3/4 as two separate pairs of timing alignments using only the cam alignment tool, not the camshaft locks.

When using camshaft locks, you're preventing the timing belt from exercising its elastic properties during minute adjustments of idler pulleys to refine two camshaft timing marks per pulley. Using the crankshaft lock or wedge locks the crankshaft from turning as one or both idler pulleys are slightly adjusted while allowing the belt to move. Inserting camshaft locks goes against procedures.
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Old 08-16-2021, 04:58 PM   #760
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Are the spark plugs installed? Yes or No????

I am telling you the "tracking" as you call it will be much worse with the plugs uninstalled because there is no compression tension on the belt to over come. The compression will force tension on the belt and keep it running true. I believe you are rotating the engine with the plugs removed... this is not normal operating circumstances.

However, if you loosen the belt tensioner with the spark plugs removed and get the belt to track true... when you install the plugs the belt will likely jump teeth at the crank sprocket while rotating.

You must time the engine with the spark plugs installed! It does no good to keep fooling around over analyzing the belt and every minute movement which you don't fully understand.
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